sometimes you win -- sometimes you lose...

Or -- you can all rush over to the airstrip and C4 it out of commision.

that works really well

Well, I played long enough now, to know that its the players that determine the outcome not the tools. I been whupped on NOD and GDI equally. Wait to you on the map and 4 or 5 mammoths come lumbering in, and well, its pretty much over at that point.

1. Medium tanks are the same price, you can use those to stop the rush
2. Gunners cost 400 and can chew through a tank REAL quickly
3. Rocket soldiers, if the server has 16+ players, a bunch of people cash in a measly 225 each, you can really pose a threat to those flame tanks
4. Be engineers, or BETTER, be hotwires and repair the MCT, I believe 1 hotwire healing the MCT can hold off 1 flame tanks damage, that ain't so costly and hard, is it?
5. MRLS can retreat and fire at flame tanks effectively kicking their $@*&#!

6. Combine all the above in a team effort, and watch the flame tanks stand no chance.

Its really not that hard and people gotta stop whining about it or westwood gonna listen to the newbies like they always do and mess up the flame tank and SCREW OVER NOD

[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Every Silent Victim ]

Its NODs only real devistating weapon and it still is only effective sometimes, ever run after a 800 med tank in a field just to see it drive in reverse firing at you and the flame tank is dead with virtually no damage done to the med tank??

Stop whining n00bs

Early MLRS rushes are the things that upset Nods basic attack ability. Thus when your MLRS goes down you then buy all mammoths and roll on the Nod base.

Yet, at 800 bucks, Nod can have 4-8 FTs in your house burning it down and GDI only have 800 to buy vehicles which is too late, or cheap infantry which is in-effective against such large numbers.

GDI has to go in with the early MRLS rush! It's a great weapon, just learn how to use it.

quote:

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Originally posted by AzWhoopin:
LMAO! With the Flame tank what would NOD have?? A paper thin armored Stealth tank and a light armored tank that will lose 1 on 1 vs anything but a Buggy or hummer!!

Its NODs only real devistating weapon and it still is only effective sometimes, ever run after a 800 med tank in a field just to see it drive in reverse firing at you and the flame tank is dead with virtually no damage done to the med tank??

Stop whining n00bs

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that's because your not using them the way they should be. I've destroyed tanks easilly with the stealth and light tank. You need to use their speed and/or clocking ability to your advantage. A light tank can dodge shots from other tanks quite easilly. Just like, repair it after every attack.

quote:

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Originally posted by generalfox:
that's because your not using them the way they should be. I've destroyed tanks easilly with the stealth and light tank. You need to use their speed and/or clocking ability to your advantage. A light tank can dodge shots from other tanks quite easilly. Just like, repair it after every attack.

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excatly, like i detroyed a mammoth with a light tank cos of its speed.

The flame tanks are very powerful, but remember that for every strategy or rush there is a counter-strategy. MRLSs do well at long range, but I once got in a flame tank and charged the GDI lines when they had our base seiged, and torched a couple or MRLSs and scared off others. They pull through only cause they're very cheap and can deal out decent damage. Gunners do OK vs the tanks if you keep your distance, and Medium tanks are probably best since they take little damage from the flames and they're fairly fast. I tried using Patch against Flame tanks and APCs, but he doesn't deal out that much damage, good against infantry though, and cheap. If you have to take them on at cloe range, minimize your profile and/or seek cover, then they will only hit you with half their power.

My problem with the flames is not that they're killer against buildings, but they have a very hard time roasting infantry and can kill mammoths 1 on 1. I wanted it to be able to roast infantry and structures just like the good ol days, but now it's just a rushing machine, and the sole Mammoth killer since most people don't use coordinated tactics to take them down using Nod's innate trickery *coughstealthcough*... They weren't too good against most tanks and heavy machineguns, either, but all they have to do is rush the Guard Tower and GDI is defenseless.

Besides, GDI can beat Nod pretty quick with a med tank/ MRLS strike, but it's not the same since those have to be careful against the defenses, not like the Flame tanks which can run amok.

Take note that in the bases, Nod gets the Obelisk and Turrets which are decent against vehicles, which is GDI's strength, and GDI gets a single tower that's decent against infantry and vehicles but not exceptional at anything, and Nod just has to wipe out that tower and sneak in a bunch engies and stealths. If GDI had two good vs. infantry Guard Towers like classic C&C and the AGT was toned down a bit, it would be similarly balanced.

In order to rebalance them, GDI should get classic Guard Towers with chainguns that dish out decent damage vs light vehicles and flame tanks, but little against Light Tanks or artillery. It'll also stop Nod from just rushing them with Black Hand stealths too easily. The Advanced Guard Tower was never too good against flames anyway, and it's MGs would be toned down but it'd get better missiles to make it a counter for the Obelisk.

The flame tank should have more splash damage and a little more firepower against infantry, but less against heavy vehicles and a bit less protection against them. They'd still be very good against buildings but they would have more weaknesses to exploit without dragging the whole team in front of it with rocket launchers to stop it.

I don't think the Flamers are extremely cheap and should be nerfed... I just think they should be tweaked to be better at what they were originally supposed to do and weakened against what used to be their 'predators'. If they could turn infantry into big piles of ash, it would make up for it being the prey of heavy cannon and tanks, and restore the balance. Nod already has plenty of tactics to use against GDI vehicles and buildings, and shouldn't ever be able to go head-on with them, but use teamwork and tactics to make up for their inherent weakness. I don't mind the building damage, and I woudln't even if they increased it, but they're so difficult to stop anyway, and I'd rather have it so the infantry trying to fight you would be like so many ants under a magnifying glass...

If we ended up with the old C&C, then all the tweaking would've been pretty pointless. I mostly like everything they've rebalanced, Artillery is somewhat useful because of its range, and the MRLS hits hard, the old one sucked but now it's more like a big tracked grim reaper than a bottle-rocket launcher. But I just wish the Flame Tank was more to the classic than what it is now. It can't hit infantry for crap, the only thing it can consistently damage is the broadside of a barn. Two things have profiles like the figurative barn, the Mammoth Tank and most any building. Which is all they end up being used against. If it reduced the poor infantry to ash after spending more than a half a second under the flames (honestly, napalm would hurt) and/or increasing the cone of fire* it would be used mainly as an infantry killer. You might think this would make it too good in a base attack, but if they decreased armor vs. AP weapons (assuming they still use an approxamation of the old C&C rules.ini data) it wouldn't be able to stand up to a tank, which is GDI's strength. While it can dominate infantry, it wouldn't be able to go right along and wipe out bases without backup since something can actually outmatch it. I don't look at it in the way of being easy or a game-winning strategy, I think it's too simple and there's not much that is really effective against the FT. I'm not a ****ed off ranter, I'm just annoyed and... dissapointed...

Now for the statistics...

Nod Flame tanks could not, in C&C TD, and shouldn't be able to stand up to any heavy armor such as medium tanks much less Mammoths, which is GDI's strength.
And it shouldn't have to, Nod should never be able to stand toe-to-toe in single combat with a GDI AFV, you either have to be a much better driver or use tactics to get around that. Nod has specialized units and abilities, but the Flamer is pretty much an all-around destroyer, and quite a deal at $800, since it can take on a $1,500 Mammoth and does pretty well against other anti-armor stuff too. Nod supposedly gets an infantry edge and GDI the armor edge, with the suggested rebalance Nod will have more infantry domination, but more weaknesses to exploit too.

The way it seems to work out, is that Nod has or at least should have, a reliance on infantry and combined arms tactics. Their infantry is good in fighting abilites, and excels at special operations, with the Black Hand stealth guys and Chem Troopers. They're not really good vs. armor, so you have to use developed tactics, or good luck to beat GDI in that area. However, GDI dominates the battlefield with brute strength, especially with vehicles, but isn't very great against infantry. The Mammoth is almost impenetrable without a good deal of teamwork, but it's still vulnerable to Black Hand stealth guys C4'ing it or trying to hijack their vehicles. The way it should play out is that either side can compete in infantry, armor, and special tactics, but they have their own edge in certain respects. Unfortunately, Nod's ace in the hole in armor is the Flame Tank, which is better against armor than infantry, which kind of throws off the balance. It's cheap effective and can go on to do lots of damage against different types of opponents, and there's little that can really beat it out, except in certain cir***stances like MRLSs at long range, and it's pretty much the one thing that is actually a good all around vehicle, at a cheap price. Woudln't it make more sense to restore it's place as an inhumane infantry-fryer? It would make everyone happy since it's still effective against buildings, though it'd be weaker against armor, it would gain an advantage against infantry, making up for it.

With this change, Nod's armored fighting vehicles would be second to GDI's in power, but well suited against infantry, while GDI gets to retain it's definite superiority in toe-to-toe heavy combat. It's a bit of 'C&C-realistic' balance that should work out. If anyone strongly disagrees, I'm not flaming*, I'm just suggesting.

*No pun intended. Honestly.
No animals were harmed in the writing of this post... Except that one.