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Unit Balance [message #86275]

Sun, 09 May 2004 11:04

Deathgod
Messages: 504
Registered: February 2003
Location: The House of B

Karma:

Colonel

PointlessAmbler

Deathgod

There are only so many places to hide on each map... not to mention that characters ducking in and out of places on the map are easy to spot because of their movement.

It doesn't even matter if they hide, because they can shoot you down from the maximum view distance. Infantry are pretty damn hard to see from 300 meters away, especially when they're not moving or better, hiding. Their bullets don't give you hints as to where they are.

Ramjets do let you know where the shot is coming from, but since they kill you in five shots and Ramjets have a four round clip, it's basically impossible to close the distance and kill them in time even if you know exactly where they are.

Rarely do I get sniped in an aircraft from 300 meters. In fact I can count on one hand the number of times that happened recently, and that was on Friday night in our FUDvsFUD game. I flew around from a different path and owned the sniper, and the problem was solved.

PointlessAmbler

Deathgod

They have a role, but if you fly into an area full of snipers expect to die, just like any other unit rushing into an area full of counterunits. If I drive my Medium Tank into an area with 3 or 4 Raveshaws, I expect to die. This is what some people call common sense.

My point is, Snipers are supposed to be counterunits to infantry, not light vehicles. Where in any game, C&C included, has a sniper rifle been effective against even the lightest vehicle armor? Commandos in C&C have a hell of a time killing a goddamn Nod Buggy, and this game is supposed to be based on C&C. I'm not saying there shouldn't be air counters, that's retarded, there needs to be a counterunit to everything. I'm just saying that picking Snipers to be counterunits to aircraft was a poor design choice. I'm also saying that units should at least stand some sort of chance against counterunits, because if they don't, the unit is worthless. As you used in your example, a Medium Tank (800) can actually defend itself against one Raveshaw (1000). Agreed, two or three can rip it to pieces. With aircraft, however, it only takes one Sniper (500, 55% the cost of attack aircraft) or n00bjetter (only slightly more expensive than the aircraft) to kill the damn thing with the same speed that it would take two Raveshaws (which cost 2000, 2.5 times the cost of the Medium Tank), especially when it's a unit that is supposed to be attacking infantry.

I would not disagree that picking snipers was a poor design choice, given their instant hit capability and incredible range compared to the unit they're countering, but I don't think it's really as horrible as you guys all make it out to be. I mean, 3 GDI rifle soldiers can shoot an apache down in just under 5 seconds. FUKEN NERF TEM TOOOOOO GOOD!!!!!1 As I have pointed out to ACK many times, if this game took from its source material (C&C) exactly, it would be horribly un-fun. C&C worked well as an RTS, but ported straight to FPS form certain considerations must be made to make gameplay flow faster. RenAlert is really slow, and it's just like Red Alert. I can appreciate the work that went into their mod, and I think they did an excellent job, but I can't play it because it takes about 2 weeks to drive to an enemy base through fairly empty terrain. Having maps 5 or 6 times the size of the ones in Ren is cool and all if you have stuff to fill the map with. The reason Ren works so well is because of its smaller maps and faster pace. This is a different issue though, and I am going off on a tangent.

On this point: Raveshaw and PIC Syd both kill Orca/Apache in 4 shots. They have a 200m range as opposed to the Orca's 100m range. Are you going to nerf them too?

PointlessAmbler

Deathgod

As it stands now an Orca can kill numerous LTs, this is a big downgrade.

Except it never gets the chance to because he gets shot down long before he approaches a target worth attacking. I'm saying that Helipads would be a better way of limiting aircraft than making them completely die against any sort of counterattack.

So making it so they couldn't kill vehicles on their own when they can now makes them better... I fail to see the logic here.

PointlessAmbler

Deathgod

See above. If you're going to make helis require ammo, all vehicles should also. It would be horribly stupid within the confines of the Renegade engine to have one vehicle for each team with such a handicap... I can't see them being too useful if they need to be flying back to base after firing at one target.

I don't see how it's a handicap... helis are support units by nature. If you use them at the right time (ie. when you're doing an assault on the enemy base, and soften up enemy armor a bit), they can be quite useful. Why not implement them the way that C&C did it, instead of making them die the second they leave their base?

So are APCs and Humvees, and apparently Stealth Tanks according to you. Should they all have to reload at base too? CONSISTENCY PLZ

PointlessAmbler

Deathgod

So since someone has been around longer their opinion is automatically more correct than someone else's? Wrong. I personally think that they are both idiots, and so are you. Since I have been here since the old-school Ren forums does that make me right? No. Number of posts or length of forum tenure doesn't mean fuck.

Meh, it's not his opinion that I'm talking about when I say that, it's that he has pulled out all the cliches: calling him a n00b for disagreeing, saying it's a horrible idea without any support behind his argument, and the "I'm right, you're not, that means USUX" attitude, not to mention poor grammar and spelling :rolleyes: Therefore, it's a bit hypocritical for him to call someone else a n00b when he himself is unable to provide a well-thought-out counterargument and misspells words in his post.

I don't think you're a moron just because we happen to disagree: you're actually capable of coming up with a coherent counterargument, a rare ability on the endless void of stupidity known as the Internet.

I'm glad you agree on this point, but you should have phrased it better in the first place to avoid this problem.

WOL: priestofb
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[Message index]

		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Fri, 23 April 2004 18:09
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		Unit Balance By: mrpirate on Fri, 23 April 2004 22:36
		Unit Balance By: spoonyrat on Fri, 23 April 2004 22:48
		Unit Balance By: warranto on Sat, 24 April 2004 00:03
		Unit Balance By: cokemaster on Sat, 24 April 2004 03:10
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		Unit Balance By: Uberfahr on Sat, 24 April 2004 05:07
		Unit Balance By: cowmisfit on Sat, 24 April 2004 06:43
		Unit Balance By: jonwil on Sat, 24 April 2004 06:59
		Unit Balance By: flyingfox on Sat, 24 April 2004 11:42
		Re: Unit Balance By: Majiin Vegeta on Sat, 24 April 2004 15:16
		Re: Unit Balance By: Slash0x on Sat, 24 April 2004 15:32
		Re: Unit Balance By: Majiin Vegeta on Sat, 24 April 2004 15:37
		Re: Unit Balance By: Slash0x on Sat, 24 April 2004 15:43
		Re: Unit Balance By: cokemaster on Sat, 24 April 2004 17:18
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sat, 24 April 2004 18:29
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sat, 24 April 2004 22:15
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sat, 24 April 2004 23:22
		Unit Balance By: DarkFish on Sun, 25 April 2004 00:53
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 01:05
		Unit Balance By: Crimson on Sun, 25 April 2004 02:56
		Unit Balance By: Dan on Sun, 25 April 2004 02:58
		Unit Balance By: Dan on Sun, 25 April 2004 02:59
		Unit Balance By: Crimson on Sun, 25 April 2004 03:00
		Unit Balance By: Dan on Sun, 25 April 2004 03:02
		Unit Balance By: m1a1_abrams on Sun, 25 April 2004 03:12
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sun, 25 April 2004 07:32
		Unit Balance By: mahkra on Sun, 25 April 2004 08:28
		Unit Balance By: tooncy on Sun, 25 April 2004 09:22
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		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 10:40
		Unit Balance By: PiMuRho on Sun, 25 April 2004 11:33
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 13:18
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		Unit Balance By: spoonyrat on Sun, 25 April 2004 14:06
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sun, 25 April 2004 14:33
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 15:26
		Unit Balance By: Homey on Sun, 25 April 2004 15:39
		Unit Balance By: Crimson on Sun, 25 April 2004 15:59
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 16:10
		Unit Balance By: spoonyrat on Sun, 25 April 2004 17:09
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		Unit Balance By: Creed3020 on Sun, 25 April 2004 17:12
		Unit Balance By: spoonyrat on Sun, 25 April 2004 17:14
		Unit Balance By: mrpirate on Sun, 25 April 2004 17:34
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 17:52
		Unit Balance By: flyingfox on Sun, 25 April 2004 18:12
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 18:18
		Unit Balance By: jd422032101 on Sun, 25 April 2004 18:21
		Unit Balance By: flyingfox on Sun, 25 April 2004 18:47
		Unit Balance By: Try_lee on Sun, 25 April 2004 18:53
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 18:55
		Unit Balance By: jd422032101 on Sun, 25 April 2004 19:02
		Unit Balance By: mrpirate on Sun, 25 April 2004 19:11
		Unit Balance By: mahkra on Sun, 25 April 2004 20:59
		Unit Balance By: mahkra on Sun, 25 April 2004 21:05
		Unit Balance By: spoonyrat on Sun, 25 April 2004 21:22
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 21:37
		Unit Balance By: warranto on Sun, 25 April 2004 22:45
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 25 April 2004 23:43
		Unit Balance By: Crimson on Sun, 25 April 2004 23:47
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sun, 25 April 2004 23:53
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sun, 25 April 2004 23:56
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Mon, 26 April 2004 01:04
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		Unit Balance By: jonwil on Mon, 26 April 2004 05:33
		Unit Balance By: Homey on Mon, 26 April 2004 07:15
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		Unit Balance By: Homey on Mon, 26 April 2004 11:13
		Unit Balance By: DarkFish on Mon, 26 April 2004 11:35
		Unit Balance By: Creed3020 on Mon, 26 April 2004 11:56
		Unit Balance By: flyingfox on Mon, 26 April 2004 15:09
		Unit Balance By: EnGiMaN56 on Thu, 29 April 2004 19:28
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Thu, 29 April 2004 20:40
		Unit Balance By: EnGiMaN56 on Fri, 30 April 2004 00:58
		Unit Balance By: EnGiMaN56 on Fri, 30 April 2004 00:59
		Unit Balance By: Slash0x on Fri, 30 April 2004 08:20
		Unit Balance By: spoonyrat on Fri, 30 April 2004 09:57
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Fri, 30 April 2004 11:20
		Unit Balance By: warranto on Fri, 30 April 2004 12:19
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Fri, 30 April 2004 12:46
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Fri, 30 April 2004 14:44
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		Unit Balance By: flyingfox on Fri, 30 April 2004 19:59
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		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Fri, 30 April 2004 20:10
		Unit Balance By: Homey on Fri, 30 April 2004 20:10
		Unit Balance By: icedog90 on Fri, 30 April 2004 23:03
		Unit Balance By: Rex on Sat, 01 May 2004 01:28
		Unit Balance By: Deactivated on Sat, 01 May 2004 02:30
		Unit Balance By: Rex on Sat, 01 May 2004 06:33
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sat, 01 May 2004 08:30
		Unit Balance By: m1a1_abrams on Sat, 01 May 2004 11:38
		Unit Balance By: icedog90 on Sat, 01 May 2004 17:55
		Unit Balance By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 May 2004 18:13
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sat, 01 May 2004 19:02
		Unit Balance By: Fabian on Sat, 01 May 2004 19:14
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sat, 01 May 2004 19:32
		Unit Balance By: Javaxcx on Sat, 01 May 2004 19:35
		Unit Balance By: icedog90 on Sat, 01 May 2004 19:56
		Unit Balance By: Battousai on Sat, 01 May 2004 20:03
		Unit Balance By: spoonyrat on Sat, 01 May 2004 22:09
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sun, 02 May 2004 00:42
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 02 May 2004 01:00
		Unit Balance By: spoonyrat on Sun, 02 May 2004 03:11
		Unit Balance By: Fabian on Sun, 02 May 2004 05:46
		Unit Balance By: Javaxcx on Sun, 02 May 2004 07:27
		Unit Balance By: mahkra on Sun, 02 May 2004 11:33
		Unit Balance By: PiMuRho on Sun, 02 May 2004 12:03
		Unit Balance By: mahkra on Sun, 02 May 2004 12:25
		Unit Balance By: icedog90 on Sun, 02 May 2004 12:34
		Unit Balance By: htmlgod on Sun, 02 May 2004 13:38
		Unit Balance By: htmlgod on Sun, 02 May 2004 13:42
		Unit Balance By: icedog90 on Sun, 02 May 2004 18:36
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sun, 02 May 2004 22:43
		Unit Balance By: Blazer on Mon, 03 May 2004 00:24
		Unit Balance By: Hydra on Mon, 03 May 2004 00:28
		Unit Balance By: mahkra on Mon, 03 May 2004 05:47
		Unit Balance By: m1a1_abrams on Mon, 03 May 2004 09:57
		Unit Balance By: Blazer on Mon, 03 May 2004 10:04
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Mon, 03 May 2004 10:24
		Unit Balance By: mrpirate on Mon, 03 May 2004 12:11
		Unit Balance By: m1a1_abrams on Mon, 03 May 2004 12:57
		Unit Balance By: Javaxcx on Mon, 03 May 2004 13:22
		Unit Balance By: Rex on Mon, 03 May 2004 13:24
		Unit Balance By: icedog90 on Mon, 03 May 2004 16:24
		Unit Balance By: m1a1_abrams on Mon, 03 May 2004 18:10
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Tue, 04 May 2004 00:04
		Unit Balance By: m1a1_abrams on Tue, 04 May 2004 09:25
		Unit Balance By: Pavla on Tue, 04 May 2004 12:00
		Unit Balance By: flyingfox on Tue, 04 May 2004 15:25
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Tue, 04 May 2004 20:45
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		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Tue, 04 May 2004 23:04
		Unit Balance By: icedog90 on Wed, 05 May 2004 19:55
		i disagree By: snipbravo on Thu, 06 May 2004 17:56
		Snipers and vehicles By: snipbravo on Thu, 06 May 2004 18:01
		Re: Snipers and vehicles By: Drkpwn3r on Thu, 06 May 2004 18:10
		Unit Balance By: sfr3f on Fri, 07 May 2004 11:12
		no By: snipbravo on Sat, 08 May 2004 18:37
		Unit Balance By: PointlessAmbler on Sat, 08 May 2004 22:08
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sun, 09 May 2004 01:51
		Re: no By: sfr3f on Sun, 09 May 2004 02:27
		Unit Balance By: PointlessAmbler on Sun, 09 May 2004 08:03
		Unit Balance By: flyingfox on Sun, 09 May 2004 09:33
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		Unit Balance By: PointlessAmbler on Sun, 09 May 2004 16:13
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Sun, 09 May 2004 23:40
		Unit Balance By: sfr3f on Mon, 10 May 2004 02:05
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		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Mon, 10 May 2004 09:04
		Unit Balance By: KIRBY098 on Mon, 10 May 2004 09:53
		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Mon, 10 May 2004 11:20
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		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Tue, 11 May 2004 08:40
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		Unit Balance By: PointlessAmbler on Tue, 11 May 2004 16:52
		Unit Balance By: SuperFlyingEngi on Tue, 11 May 2004 17:35
		Unit Balance By: Homey on Tue, 11 May 2004 17:39
		Unit Balance By: tanhm07 on Wed, 12 May 2004 02:27
		Unit Balance By: Phoenix - Aeon on Wed, 12 May 2004 05:08
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		Unit Balance By: Jorge on Wed, 12 May 2004 13:43
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		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Thu, 13 May 2004 00:05
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		Unit Balance By: Renx on Thu, 13 May 2004 03:55
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Thu, 13 May 2004 10:17
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		Unit Balance By: tanhm07 on Fri, 14 May 2004 00:03
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		Unit Balance By: nastym4n on Fri, 14 May 2004 02:47
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		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Fri, 14 May 2004 17:20
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		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Fri, 14 May 2004 17:59
		Unit Balance By: mrpirate on Fri, 14 May 2004 18:30
		Unit Balance By: SuperFlyingEngi on Fri, 14 May 2004 18:57
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		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Mon, 17 May 2004 10:46
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		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Mon, 17 May 2004 18:25
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		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Mon, 17 May 2004 20:30
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		Unit Balance By: Deathgod on Mon, 17 May 2004 21:48
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		Unit Balance By: Rex on Tue, 18 May 2004 01:19
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		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Tue, 18 May 2004 01:34
		Unit Balance By: Blazer on Tue, 18 May 2004 02:05
		Unit Balance By: tanhm07 on Tue, 18 May 2004 05:40
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Tue, 18 May 2004 11:28
		Unit Balance By: spoonyrat on Tue, 18 May 2004 12:20
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Tue, 18 May 2004 12:24
		Unit Balance By: mrpirate on Tue, 18 May 2004 12:25
		Unit Balance By: Javaxcx on Tue, 18 May 2004 12:33
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Tue, 18 May 2004 12:53
		Unit Balance By: Javaxcx on Tue, 18 May 2004 13:07
		Unit Balance By: Aircraftkiller on Tue, 18 May 2004 13:25

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