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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466848 is a reply to message #466761] Sat, 28 April 2012 18:27 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
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fredcow9 wrote on Fri, 27 April 2012 13:25

ok...whats the famed instruction to me? I dont blame God for suggesting the killing of people regardless of who they are trying to entice them to serve other gods. Only makes sense if you drag a group of people out of slavery, perform great wonders before them all, give them a nice plot of land as an inheritance and then they go and worship something else? Of course that threats going to be eliminated. If you really think God commanded that for anyone except the Israelites then you must think I cant eat anything without cloven hooves...

firstly, when did you think this instruction was rescinded?
secondly, interesting you classify worshipping a different religion as a "threat"; previously you called non-belief a "crime" so i suppose i shouldn't be surprised
thirdly, haven't you noticed that one of them is a command for completely indiscriminate slaughter? just a few people in the city worship golden calves or whatever, and that's enough to slaughter the entire city's population down to the last child? good grief

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isn't there some small part of you that wonders why you're trying to justify intentional and systematic genocide of innocent children?

Im not even trying to justify pharaohs actions...he was just a dumbass.

uh no, i was referring to yahweh's deliberate targeting of children.

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I dont know what you want me to do with this... am I responding to myself and you? just you? or are you pointing out that your going to just say the same things over and over again. why is hell in religion. why are you punished for being the wrong religion. why is god so merciless to people who dont believe in him. the short answer is because they are very real.

i think that exchange is very telling as to the difference between us; me going into quite some detail as to serious problems with your religion, and you having no answer to any of it beyond "join my religion or be tortured" over and over again

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He said his disciples reported these things in the quote. I dont know why you would ask pages and pages as to how a historian is getting his information about things hes telling you hes got.

Jesus disciples, they reported it.

who? when? what did they say?

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even if these historians believed it themselves,

Thats not relevant, what is, is if they contradict the gospels or not.

it's not relevant whether a devout Jewish man who seriously believes in the oncoming messiah is convinced that Jesus is the real deal or not?

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which they generally don't, there's still not much credibility to what they write, and what they write would be unimpressive even if it were true (generally stuff along the lines of "there was a group of people who believed X...")

right, but again thats not even the point at all. The whole point is that secular historians recorded accounts of Jesus that do exist only confirm what the gospels are saying.

that's much too generous a statement.

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...when do you think josephus wrote about jesus?

probably around 60-70 ad. He completed his work in the 90s so its only reasonable for him to accuire information over this time period so he could write his great work hes known for.

so again, decades after jesus is supposed to have died.

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So everything we know about ancient history cant be trusted because all the historians at their respective times would have been delusional? You dont think anyone wrote what they ACTUALLY SAW. I understand the skepticism but you honestly cant think everyone had some sort of an agenda, those that did, they failed. greek mythology is known as greek mythology for a reason. Christ is not mythology.
Yes they are in a time when most couldnt read or write which is why its amazing the gospels are not lying when matched with secular writings dont you think?

uh no, cos all these "secular writings" basically say is "there's a group of people who believed this guy who lived a few decades ago was their messiah". even if this wasn't in a time and place where there was basically no such thing as education, where superstition was rampant and where most people already believed in god(s) anyway, this would still not vindicate the gospels.

i'm glad you mention greek mythology, because there's an analogy i can make. have you read the Iliad? if not, quick summary: story of (some of) the Trojan War, the greek city-states send armies to lay siege to Troy and eventually take it thanks to the wooden horse. while most of the action is done by greek and trojan heroes such as achilles, hector, odysseus etc, the greek gods are also involved and sometimes interfere in events. e.g. at one point the god Apollo sends a plague against the greeks because they were rude to a priest.

now, there is a city which seems like a good candidate for Troy. there might have been a war that destroyed it. suppose some evidence cropped up that a plague ravaged the armies besieging the city. i doubt such evidence could be found - this was centuries before jesus - but suppose it was. or suppose one of the besieging warriors was named Achilles.
this, i'm sure you'll agree, would not prove the greek gods were real.

in other words, finding out that one or two details of the Iliad to be vaguely accurate says nothing about the rest of it, especially the supernatural bits.

same for the gospels.

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sorry, but you're gonna have to do a little better than a few droning scribblings written decades after the guy they're talking about is supposed to have died.

Oh did you want writings from people that believed Jesus was the son of God? I was only using people who rejected him and would be the most neutral source.

you're saying you deliberately picked devout jewish people who rejected the idea that jesus was the messiah thinking this would be the best way to prove your case?

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that's feeble, and if your god is intelligent, he'd know how feeble it is. a decent god who was interested in people all over the world joining his religion ought to be able to do better than this.

Id say considering how Christianity swept the world pretty quick did a fine job. the disciples went around getting lots of believers for a reason.

i can suggest a few reasons
- the enormous amount of superstition and credulity of the time and place
- the fact loads of people there already believed in god(s), specifically judaism and the prospect of an imminent messiah
- the fact there was basically no such thing as education
- the coercive nature of the religion itself, i.e. follow me or you will be tortured

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why don't so many people believe it even though you threaten them with worse than death?

In the meantime, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were in fact Christians; if they confessed it, I repeated the question twice, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed.-pliny

yes, there were obviously people who refused to deny their religion when threatene with death, and the point i was making is there are far more people who won't join this religion when threatened with even worse.

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not quite the same thing in practice, because you're obviously full of shit, but the principle is the same.

nice question dodge. please answer it next time.

eh?

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which is another way of saying that jesus and god have nothing to do with each other.

no its a way of saying the jewish elders at the time didnt care about God, his prophecies or following his orders anymore. They were the heads of state and enjoyed their power even amongst roman occupation.

how do you know that?

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whatever makes you feel better about the fact that you can't prove anything important about jesus.

So far I have proved the gospels can be trusted

again, this is a laughable overstatement

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"died" - woop de doo

an innocent man dying one after reading your posts would think they would have more concern and be blasting the roman government for such atrocities. Of course when it comes to your enemies though you dont care.

not the point i was making. everybody dies. being put to death in horrible ways for non-crimes was not uncommon at all at that time and place. i've consistently been opposed to blasphemy/heresy trials, and unelected religious bullies having power over the rest of us; i don't need to make a special point of each victim.

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"fulfilled prophecies" - wanna give a few examples?

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
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Mattthew 1:20-23 [20] But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. [21] She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." [22] All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: [23] "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "God with us."


i think i heard that "virgin" was a mistranslation of "young woman" or something like that?

but suppose it really is "virgin". how do you know mary was a virgin?

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Isaiah 37:31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above.
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Matthew 1:1-2, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son [descendant] of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, [16] and [a later] Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.


what's special about this?

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Isaiah 16:5 In love a throne will be established; in faithfulness a man will sit on it--one from the house of David--one who in judging seeks justice and speeds the cause of righteousness
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Matthew 1:1-2A, 6, 16 [1] A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham: [2] Abraham was the father of Isaac, ... [6] and Jesse the father of King David. [16] and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.


joseph counts as jesus' father, does he? interesting

jesus had a throne?

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Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.
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Matthew 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem


sorry, i'm not following this one.

[quote]Jeremiah 31:15 This is what the LORD says: "A voice is heard in Ramah, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."
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Matthew 2:16-18 [16] When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. [17] Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: [18] "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

that's not really a prediction, is it? rachel was waaaaaay before herod. what's the connection?

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Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
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Matthew 2:14-15 [14] So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, [15] where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."


again, this isn't really a prediction.

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Isaiah 49:6 he [the Lord] says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
and
Isaiah 42:1-4, 6 [1] "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations. [2] He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets. [3] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out. In faithfulness he will bring forth justice; [4] he will not falter or be discouraged till he establishes justice on earth. In his law the islands will put their hope." [6] "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
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Matthew 12:14-21 [14] But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus. [15] Aware of this, Jesus withdrew from that place. Many followed him, and he healed all their sick, [16] warning them not to tell who he was. [17] This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: [18] "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations. [19] He will not quarrel or cry out; no one will hear his voice in the streets. [20] A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he leads justice to victory. [21] In his name the nations will put their hope."


if this is a prediction, and despite its vagueness i'll say it kinda is, isn't it obvious jesus failed to fulfil it?

[quote]Isaiah 35:5-6a [5] Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. [6a] Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
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Luke 7:20-22 [20] When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, `Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' " [21] At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. [22] So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor."

barely a prediction. how do you know jesus cured anybody?

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this one pertains to you lol
Psalm 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal.

stop me if i'm wrong, but it's David who says this? what does it have to do with Jesus?

[quote]Isaiah 49:7 This is what the LORD says-- the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel-- to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation, to the servant of rulers: "Kings will see you and rise up, princes will see and bow down, because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you."
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John 7:48-49 "Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? [49] No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law--there is a curse on them."

and
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John 15:24-25 [24] If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. [25] But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

notice the vagueness?

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Psalm 118:22 The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone [cornerstone of a building]; [23] the LORD has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes
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Matthew 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures:" `The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes' ?


again, it's hard to see in what sense this is a prediction?

[quote]Zechariah 11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
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Matthew 26:14-15 [14] Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests [15] and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins.

again, not a prediction.

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Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
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John 20:25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."


says david. nothing to do with jesus as far as i can tell. and again, not a prediction. for example, three or four verses previously - the same speech - he says he's beset by "bulls of Bashan". if this is a prophecy, jesus failed to fulfil it.

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Psalm 22:17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.
and
Psalm 34:20 he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.
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John 19:33; 36a [33] But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. [36a] These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"


the first one is in the very same speech as the bulls of bashan, which isn't a prophecy and has nothing to do with jesus. and you should be glad of that, because if you want to claim it's a prophecy, you can only conclude that jesus failed to fulfil it.

the second one contains an interesting turn of phrase. a variation of it crops up quite a lot: "and this happened so that it would be fulfiled that which was spoken by the prophets". very interesting turn of phrase. sounds like "we did it because the scriptures said it would happen", and there's nothing supernatural about that, is there?

but once again, the bit in psalms seems to have nothing to do with a messiah.

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Psalm 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
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Matthew 27:35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots


still in the bulls of bashan speech

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Isaiah 53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death ...
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Matthew 27:57,59-60 [57] As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. [59] Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, [60] and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.


all of this chapter so far is written in the past tense. in what sense, therefore, is it a prediction?

i wonder how long it would take for a man to cut a tomb out of the rock.

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Isaiah 53:8, 11 [8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [11] After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
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Matthew 28:2, 5-7, 9 [2] There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. [5] The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. [6] He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. [7] Then go quickly and tell his disciples: `He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." [9] Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.


again, notice the vagueness?

got any better ones than these? cos these are not impressive.

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"rose from the dead" - prove it

the gospels claim it, the secular writings claim others claiming it. Im really not sure what your expecting.

certainly not that you could prove it.

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as for me "falling in line with the pharisees", let's remember that i've consistently been in favour of religious freedom, whereas you've openly defended murder and torture as punishments for not being the right religion,

no, you are talking about the things the ancient israelites were commanded, because I believe God carried out these commandments and I dont doubt the reasonableness of them then you automatically attach some label to me of defending murder and torture for being the wrong religion. please try again.

okay, let's say the stuff in deuteronomy and leviticus etc is only talking to the people of the time, and not instructions for you. scratch those. we've still got hell, haven't we? (which is worse than the instructions in deuteronomy)

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doesn't that make you reconsider? can you really be in favour of persecuting people for not being the right religion when someone you admire was the victim of the same thing?

Its not the same, Christ was guilty of nothing according to the scriptures except trying to save everyone.

it's worse. jesus repeatedly threatens people with hell if they don't do as he says. and if he claimed to be god, then that's much worse than when your local priest makes the same threats.

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no, you're just too fucking retarded to realise that you think it too.

So because I dont share the same life values and what punishments are deserving in life im retarded?

no, you missed the point. i speculated that you might actually agree that being tortured for not being the right religion is indeed a bad thing, but just haven't realised that you think so. i wonder if you've ever really thought about it, i.e. hell.

think about it now.

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do you want to live in a society where you can be horribly punished for not being the right religion according to those in power?

Where does the bible command anyone in this age to do such a thing?

*cough* hell *cough*

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where the ones in power say that the right religion is not the same as yours?

This happens but not from a christian point of view. All over the world christians are killed on a daily basis for not conforming to the governments belief system. I dont think thats right and it is fucked up

interesting. so you think people can be horribly tortured for not being the right religion by God, but you think it's "not right" and "fucked up" when the same thing (or rather, a much more lenient thing) is inflicted by humans?

try extending your thoughts a little. consider the following question.
Should a person be tortured as a punishment for not being the right religion?
i say: no. you say: yes, but only when it's my religion and when my dictator is doing the torturing.

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you're still aware that i don't think this god of yours is real?

even if you thought he was, you wouldnt believe. I think you even said that once a long time ago, though i could be wrong.

what do you mean by "believe"?

i've definitely said that it would take more than evidence of god and jesus to make me a christian, because there is more than one objection for me. it's not just the fact that i don't think it's true, there's also the fact that i morally object to a lot of it. finding out that the god of the bible really was real would be very bad news as far as i'm concerned. it's a great relief to think there's no hell. finding out that it was true would mean a few friends and family members are being horribly tortured right now. good people, just not the right religion. i don't think it's possible for me to grasp what a crushing blow this would be.

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i have a question. why's satan the villain of the bible?

In a grasp of greed, satan sought to take over the throne of God with 1/3 the angels. as punishment for this he was condemned to hell (made just for him and the angles originally). Since he cant do anything to God, hes decided to go after Gods children. Now why does God permit this I dont know, however its reality and thats just the way things are so I accept it.

haven't you noticed that satan barely appears in the bible at all?

the war in heaven stuff is only in Revelation, which - let's face it - is so ridiculous it probably shouldn't even be in the bible. even christians can't agree on what the fuck it's talking about.

satan barely appears in the books besides that; mainly in Job, where he is a dick but only a secondary antagonist, the primary antagonist obviously being God (may as well be satan's boss, apparently... if this is even the same Satan commonly referred to, and there's a strong argument for saying it isn't)
that, and when he tempts jesus in the wilderness, which isn't much of a big deal

no, the villain of the book is very obviously Yahweh. what mischief does satan do? he kills a few people in Job, certainly an awful thing to do, albeit a thing done with Yahweh's permission. compare that to the enormous death toll Yahweh racks up in the bible, either by wiping people out himself or ordering people to do it (arguably worse) and the whole hell business.

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telling kids that religion X or Y is real when they're too young to know any better.

I know alot of people that had christian upbringings. They are not christian in the least lol.

interesting. i hear this a lot when i talk to christians, "those people aren't really christians". sometimes in the same post as claims of how many christians there are.

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kids are taught this bullshit with the same certainly as what they're taught in maths and science, and they're not told "by the way, there's basically no evidence that any of this crap is true, and you can just live your life without a religion btw", and they're threatened with extraordinary punishments.

You dont think theres any evidence and that its all just that faith crap.

christians - or perhaps not christians in your view - never tire of telling us so.

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"the fool hath said in his heart, there is no God"

this bit of demagoguery is completely discredited by the following verses, where it says that these non-believers are all horribly wicked and none of them have ever done any good thing. that is so obviously untrue that i wonder why christians ever want to draw attention anywhere near it.

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thats it because its just outlandish to even THINK FOR ONE SECOND that we were put here by chance or some other retarded theory running around of evolving species. Look at the bullshit "science" they teach kids at a young age and tell me whoes really lying to who?

you must realise how stupid you sound at this point, surely?

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and of course children are the target demographic, because it doesn't work on intelligent adults.

are you saying I cant come up with a list of intelligent people through history that were christian?

moving the goalposts a bit there.

you can also come up with a list of intelligent people who believed other fucking retarded stuff like alchemy and the phlogiston (sp?) theory.

question is why were they christians? could it be because they were brought up christians, i.e. indoctrinated as kids, because education was fucking awful at the time, because christianity had all kinds of political power, because of hell threats, because of how dangerous it was to admit you weren't a christian?

no, fast-forward to now. it's very, very rare for an intelligent person to convert to christianity through logical, civilised debate without coercion. but then, without coercion, christianity wouldn't be christianity.

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i've debated dozens of religious people and not a single one has said anything to make me think their religions are worthwhile. seriously, not a damn thing. (most of them were less fanatical than you)

How is that relevant? if anything it just sounds like your full of yourself tbh.

no, it's an observation on the abject failure of my debate opponents to prove anything important, or answer any of my moral objections.

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so?

If he existed he either died on a cross or didnt. he either rose from the dead or didnt. Based on all I have presented thus far your not doing the best job of showing me my errors here.

died on a cross wouldn't be unusual. rising from the dead would be (though it wouldn't vindicate his moral teachings, or even prove that he himself had the supernatural power), so what a shame we've had no evidence of that.

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the gospels don't even agree with each other. but then, i wouldn't expect them to.

where?

we can skip over the numerous times when the speeches of jesus don't agree with each other, because that's exactly what you would expect from reports written decades after a person died. who was Joseph's father?

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and most of the secular historical sources you cite, josephus etc, they deny it too despite believing in the jewish messiah.

I purposely picked people who denied him...Yet even they agree with the gospels.

i'm not sure i believe that you intentionally picked people who do more to undermine your case than support it.

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the fact it became so widespread is because it was given power by the roman empire Sarcasm

why was it given power by the roman empire Sarcasm

i don't know. to pacify rebellious minorities, perhaps?

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first, swap "never existed" for "was a man, not the son of a god". as for lunacy, have you even read the "secular historical sources" you keep citing?

It seems thus far you havent even glanced at them.

sigh... don't be silly

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Nasty stuff. But I can say that, cos unlike you i've always been against people being persecuted for their religion (if that is, indeed, why they were all killed...), whereas you're enthusiastically in favour of it.

I thought the Christians were doing the persecuting according to you?

"the Christians"?

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1. "find me in history any religion..." - you must realise you're asking the wrong guy here

fair enough, point though is you wont.

and indeed, why would i? to say your religion can claim something other religions can't is hardly impressive.

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2. "claimed that God was in human form" - you haven't proven that jesus said any such thing.

long scripture post #2

so, like i said, you haven't proven that jesus said any such thing. the gospels say he said it, so what? prove he said it, please... and then your real work will be still ahead of you: prove he was right.

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3. "did not forcibly take over or preach through force" - are you fucking retarded? what is Hell? jesus says follow me and do as i say or you'll go to hell.

wheres the force?
Jesus: Im God heres a consequence if you dont believe me even though Iv been performing miracles for years and it shoudlnt be this difficult
Man: I dont believe you anyway. why are you forcing me to go to hell?

what is hell? a place of torture made by jesus's dad (apparently). obey me or that's where you will go as a punishment. this is an awful way to behave. jesus was not a good person if he said what the gospels say he said.

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4. "outside sources corroborate the story" - they do more to undermine than corroborate

where and how?

see above re: jewish men obviously not thinking jesus was the messiah, christians being referred to derisively, nothing supernatural being vindicated

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5. this isn't exactly a fallacy, but rather something odd i've noticed about you.
you speak highly of the disciples who supposedly stuck to their religion even in the face of threats of death and torture. if this is admirable, why are you so contemptuous towards me sticking to my intellectual position in the face of torture?

of course its intellectual to you Listen . The point of the disciples sticking to their death and torture is that its reasonable to assume they are not lying.

who said they were? i'm more inclined to think they ("they" is such a vague word, we really should specify who are we talking about) were just plain wrong

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it isn't exactly the same thing, if only because your threats are obviously lies, but if you're gonna praise the disciples who kept their faith under fire, can't you admit a grudging respect for someone like me who continues to be honest and open about my non-belief no matter what you threaten me with?

of course, I have no contempt for you or your positions even though it may come across that way its just because we are in debate. I greatly appreciate people being open bout their beliefs. what I do not respect however are people who claim to be open but when questions come up they are dodged or twisted around.

why would a petty little thing like that bother you? you're ok with people being horribly tortured for not being the right religion. if that can't bother you, why get worked up about what some guy says?

Unleash the Renerageâ„¢

Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful

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