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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466703 is a reply to message #466699]

Thu, 26 April 2012 11:01

Spoony
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Registered: January 2006

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fredcow9 wrote on Thu, 26 April 2012 09:51

Spoony wrote on Wed, 25 April 2012 18:36

firstly, do you still think the following:
1. people who preach a different religion deserve to be killed

Never felt this way

Spoony: so you're ok with the instruction for genocide if another town worships another god, or the instruction of what to do if a friend or family member tries to tell you about a different religion?
Fredcow: you said earlier that the punishment hell was an unbearable one and yet if someone comes along false preaching to try to entrap you in hell then he doesnt deserve death? yet thats what hes trying to get you is eternal death and torment.

Quote:

2. it is permissible to deliberately slaughter children to frighten the adults in their society

This tatic isnt even in the bible but I never felt this way to begin with. Im not so sure what reference of killing children to frighten adults in society would be tbh.

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Spoony: god murders the egyptian firstborn. of what crime is every single one of these children guilty that would justify their death? and why does it make sense to murder these children, as opposed to... say... the pharaoh who keeps the slaves and won't let them go?

firstly, i have asked you to demonstrate that the innumerable victims of your god were all guilty - look at my previous post. the egyptian firstborn, for example, what crime did they commit?
secondly, it would still qualify as genocide if they were all guilty.

while we're on the subject of you trying to explain away the more despicable parts in the bible, how about the egyptian firstborn? god kills all the firstborn of egypt. what is your way of explaining why this is not the sickening genocide of innocent children it appears to be?
^^ took me quite a few posts before you had a go at replying

Fredcow: The egyptian story is an ultimatum, stop holding my people as slaves or ill put your people through so much misery youll regret it. now if your thinking that all these first borns have hell fire to answer to after their death thats probably not the case, and i actually imagine that the truly innocent in a case like that are dealt with accordingly. do i know for sure? nah. again these are all cases where people are warned in advance they just dont listen.

Spoony: nothing here, absolutely nothing, mitigates the fact that the punishment is the indiscriminate genocide of innocent children. it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what the pharaoh did or how many times he was threatened. if the story said that god killed the pharaoh, you wouldn't hear any objection from me. what's more, i think it'd be more likely to work. the pharaoh's already ignored like 10 warnings, right? and there's been all sorts of punishment on his people. we've already seen that the pharaoh doesn't seem to care about his people suffering. threaten him personally and you might get a result.

Fredcow: well then i guess we have to agree to disagree because obviously if you have read entirely and understand the bible to what you believe would be your own understanding then theres nothing I can do, you either see something like the egyptian story as an example of why people should listen to God or you see it as a mass genocide against the innocent regardless of the details

Quote:

3. people who are not convinced in the truth of your religion deserve to be tortured

ah I guess my answer to question 1 falls under this category. the relevance of my being ok with it is kind of moot although I am. Whats really relevant about this question is if thats the case and you are fully aware the christian God would do this then what is your excuse for not believing? (just hypothetically of course)

i've already gone over the quite major problems with the concept of hell, the system of torture for not being the right religion that you have repeatedly defended. you had no response to any of them. shall i repeat them?

Quote:

This is more than what he heard, its what he was made well aware of and felt important enough to include in his history writings.

Not important enough to believe it himself, though Thumbs Up

This is a Jewish man, apparently quite devout. He believes in Yahweh and the Jewish concept of an oncoming messiah (he thought it was some other guy at one point)... and he obviously didn't think Jesus was it.

Quote:

Do you think the government at the time for whom he worked (you do know he worked for the romans) would have accepted an account based on "what he heard"...

easy tiger, i just asserted that he is not a contemporary of jesus. you can't seem to find any, can you?

Quote:

If you think its been tampered with, what era did this occur? Who did the tampering or at least who had the most to gain by digging into his writings and changing the originals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Arguments_challenging_authenticit y

Quote:

Jesus died at 33 years of age. Josephus wrote these things 4 years after min.

much, much later than that. josephus wasn't even born until after jesus is supposed to have died. he probably wrote this stuff half a century or so after jesus was supposed to have been crucified.

Quote:

They coincide with the writings of tacitus who wrote during Christ life up to about the 40s ad.

eh? Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117)? that Tacitus?

Quote:

Heres what you NEED to dispute. Christ lived amoungst and showed himself to many peoples. thousands at times. He was rejected by the Jewish authority at the time and his life was pretty much constantly being sought out by them.

Suppose for a moment that this was true. Why do you think this helps your case? The Jewish authorities of the time - men who believed in God and believed in the messiah - they'd been propagating the messiah concept for centuries - did not think Jesus was it. And they were so angry that they wanted him silenced, and even killed. This helps your case? Really? If Jesus really was doing miracles and whatnot, they would have accepted him as the messiah. They didn't. What say you to that? You think the Jewish authorities simply didn't know he was the messiah? Or you think they purposely had the messiah killed, which would have to be pretty fucking brave of them given what they believed about Yahweh in the old testament? (the god of the old testament kills people all the time for, like, nothing. what would he do to people who killed the messiah?)

Quote:

The apostles lived with broke bread with slept and did everything with Jesus. If your looking for an eyewitness account they are the best ones your going to get.

It's true you can't seem to come up with a better one, discounting the Jewish authorities themselves. Or are they not eyewitnesses?

Quote:

What is your biggest distrust in the gospels? assume they have no motive. what is their biggest error?

....just the gospels or the whole bible?

quick summary
1. i don't believe any of the supernatural bullshit (including the existence of a god or the supernatural nature of Jesus). if it turned out that there really was a guy called jesus who did some preaching and got crucified, so what? really was a
2. it obviously has nothing to teach me about morality. the good stuff i already knew, the bad stuff is - well, bad.
3. following on with the bad stuff, i could refer you to the stuff above, such as the concept of hell... which is a strong contender for the most evil idea anyone came up with. what a relief it is to think it's a lie. but then i'm not the target demographic, am i? the main targets for proselytising are children, and old/sick/dying people.

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[Message index]

		Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:33
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:15
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:28
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Herr Surth on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:56
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 13 January 2011 09:46
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Herr Surth on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:53
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:11
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Herr Surth on Thu, 13 January 2011 05:45
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 13 January 2011 12:26
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Thu, 13 January 2011 17:07
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 13 January 2011 17:44
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 12:36
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 13 January 2011 15:19
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: appshot on Thu, 13 January 2011 15:48
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 13 January 2011 16:01
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 16:07
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Thu, 13 January 2011 17:16
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 13 January 2011 16:53
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 13 January 2011 17:52
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 13 January 2011 18:19
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: grant89uk on Thu, 13 January 2011 18:20
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Fri, 14 January 2011 04:02
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: argathol3 on Fri, 14 January 2011 06:40
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: jnz on Fri, 14 January 2011 16:32
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Fri, 14 January 2011 17:29
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 14 January 2011 20:05
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Sat, 15 January 2011 06:22
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: EvilWhiteDragon on Tue, 18 January 2011 04:00
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Tue, 18 January 2011 04:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: EvilWhiteDragon on Tue, 18 January 2011 05:27
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Tue, 18 January 2011 06:15
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Tue, 18 January 2011 13:07
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: EvilWhiteDragon on Wed, 19 January 2011 04:19
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Wed, 19 January 2011 09:41
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Pyr0man1c on Sat, 15 January 2011 02:22
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Crimson on Sat, 15 January 2011 02:35
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Pyr0man1c on Sat, 15 January 2011 14:42
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: jnz on Sat, 15 January 2011 09:28
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 15 January 2011 10:40
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Sat, 15 January 2011 17:23
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 15 January 2011 20:43
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Sun, 16 January 2011 00:52
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Sun, 16 January 2011 10:47
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Sun, 16 January 2011 19:09
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Dover on Sun, 16 January 2011 20:11
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Pyr0man1c on Sun, 16 January 2011 02:29
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Pyr0man1c on Sun, 16 January 2011 09:28
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Sun, 16 January 2011 17:00
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: EvilWhiteDragon on Tue, 18 January 2011 04:06
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Muad Dib15 on Mon, 17 January 2011 23:33
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 18 January 2011 03:12
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: EvilWhiteDragon on Tue, 18 January 2011 03:58
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 19 January 2011 07:09
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Tunaman on Wed, 19 January 2011 18:42
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Starbuzzz on Sun, 30 January 2011 07:42
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Sun, 30 January 2011 19:54
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: snpr1101 on Mon, 31 January 2011 00:33
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: shippo on Sat, 16 April 2011 10:37
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Sat, 16 April 2011 12:22
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: shippo on Sun, 17 April 2011 06:19
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Sun, 17 April 2011 06:24
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Herr Surth on Sun, 17 April 2011 06:29
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Herr Surth on Sat, 16 April 2011 12:25
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: blunts on Fri, 15 April 2011 21:37
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Tunaman on Sun, 17 April 2011 01:23
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Herr Surth on Sun, 17 April 2011 04:45
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Tunaman on Sun, 17 April 2011 16:28
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: MUDKIPS on Sun, 17 April 2011 16:59
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: shippo on Sun, 17 April 2011 18:25
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Sun, 17 April 2011 18:58
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: shippo on Mon, 18 April 2011 20:10
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 19 April 2011 02:30
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: MUDKIPS on Mon, 18 April 2011 13:26
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Sun, 17 April 2011 18:32
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: grant89uk on Mon, 18 April 2011 04:32
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: MUDKIPS on Tue, 19 April 2011 01:22
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 19 April 2011 18:54
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: shippo on Wed, 20 April 2011 05:25
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Wed, 20 April 2011 06:42
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: shippo on Wed, 20 April 2011 16:55
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Wed, 20 April 2011 18:26
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Herr Surth on Thu, 21 April 2011 02:26
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Herr Surth on Sat, 23 April 2011 03:16
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Starbuzz on Tue, 26 April 2011 15:59
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Starbuzz on Tue, 28 June 2011 06:40
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Muad Dib15 on Mon, 27 June 2011 22:13
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Tue, 28 June 2011 07:41
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: HaTe on Wed, 29 June 2011 19:09
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Altzan on Wed, 29 June 2011 21:26
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Taz on Fri, 08 July 2011 11:48
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: renalpha on Sun, 10 July 2011 18:47
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Taz on Mon, 07 November 2011 10:40
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Sineponev on Sun, 29 January 2012 19:44
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Sun, 29 January 2012 23:44
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Mon, 30 January 2012 23:52
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 31 January 2012 06:50
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Sun, 15 April 2012 10:46
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: F1r3st0rm on Sun, 15 April 2012 11:24
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: eatcow on Sun, 15 April 2012 23:52
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Mon, 16 April 2012 03:04
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 17 April 2012 13:38
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Wed, 25 April 2012 15:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Wed, 25 April 2012 18:36
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 26 April 2012 05:38
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 26 April 2012 06:39
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Mon, 30 April 2012 11:11
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Thu, 26 April 2012 09:51
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 26 April 2012 11:01
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Thu, 26 April 2012 12:55
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 26 April 2012 14:17
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Fri, 27 April 2012 13:25
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Sat, 28 April 2012 18:27
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Tue, 08 May 2012 16:32
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 08 May 2012 23:54
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Mon, 16 April 2012 04:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Mon, 16 April 2012 07:14
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Mon, 16 April 2012 10:56
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Thu, 26 April 2012 05:42
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Sat, 28 April 2012 00:37
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Sat, 28 April 2012 17:36
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Gohax on Mon, 30 April 2012 22:02
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Mon, 30 April 2012 22:26
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Wed, 02 May 2012 10:56
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: YesNoMayb on Wed, 02 May 2012 14:27
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Wed, 02 May 2012 14:42
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: ehhh on Wed, 02 May 2012 14:46
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Wed, 02 May 2012 19:37
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: YesNoMayb on Wed, 02 May 2012 16:12
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Wed, 02 May 2012 20:08
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Wed, 02 May 2012 21:44
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: TankClash on Thu, 03 May 2012 04:11
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Thu, 03 May 2012 04:16
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Fri, 04 May 2012 12:40
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Fri, 04 May 2012 12:58
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Fri, 04 May 2012 12:59
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Sat, 05 May 2012 16:55
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: appshot on Sun, 06 May 2012 00:53
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Sun, 06 May 2012 08:45
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: ehhh on Sun, 06 May 2012 09:14
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Sun, 06 May 2012 09:33
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: ehhh on Sun, 06 May 2012 10:05
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Sun, 06 May 2012 10:49
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Wed, 09 May 2012 00:48
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Wed, 09 May 2012 01:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Wed, 09 May 2012 13:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Wed, 09 May 2012 14:41

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