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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #466667 is a reply to message #466283] Wed, 25 April 2012 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
fredcow9 is currently offline  fredcow9
Messages: 32
Registered: December 2005
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Ill entertain you spoony since its been too long.
Quote:

I've asked you five or six times to provide a single good source for the remarkably specifically detailed version of events you gave regarding the disposal of Jesus' body. Everyone reading this thread can see me asking you over and over again, and can see you dodging it over and over again.

Im not so sure if any outside sources other than the gospels document "detailed events" of the disposal of his body. However, the gospels can be trusted as to the details of his life, death and resurrection and here is why:
You have biblical sources (the gospels) then you have non biblical sources of course. The gospels in a nutshell do not contradict secular history and were written anywhere from 10-40 years after Christs death depending on the letter/gospel you refer to. We know from the writings themselves and based on what they reference that several were written before the temple destruction and some were written after. This is a fact and I would be quite enthralled to see anyone prove otherwise.
The outsides sources are explained now
here we discuss Flavious Josephus and I will be quotting from a website that did provide accurate details here, if you question the source you will be up to the task of disproving them with another source.
"Josephus was a Jewish historian who was born around AD 38. He served Roman commander Vespasian in Jerusalem until the city's destruction in AD 70. Josephus personally believed Vespasian to be Israel's promised Messiah. When Vespasian later became emperor of Rome, Josephus served under him as court historian. 2 In AD 93, Josephus finished his work Antiquities of the Jews in which at least three passages specifically confirm portions of Scripture:"
Quote:

But to some of the Jews the destruction of Herod's army seemed to be divine vengeance, and certainly a just vengeance, for his treatment of John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had put him to death, though he was a good man and had exhorted the Jews to lead righteous lives, to practice justice towards their fellows and piety towards God, and so doing to join in baptism

compare this to
Luke 9:7-9
Quote:

7 Now Herod the tetrarch heard about all that was going on. And he was perplexed because some were saying that John had been raised from the dead, 8 others that Elijah had appeared, and still others that one of the prophets of long ago had come back to life. 9 But Herod said, "I beheaded John. Who, then, is this I hear such things about?" And he tried to see him.

Mat 4:12
Quote:

Now when Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, He departed to Galilee.

Mark 1:14
Quote:

Now after John was arrested, Jesus dcame into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and fthe kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.

Jesus was baptized by John and this is entirely supported through all the gospels. If you need those scriptures I can post em.
More on Josephus:
Quote:

...convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned.

in scripture:
Mark 6:3
Quote:

Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.

Galatians 1:19
Quote:

I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother.

More Josephus
Quote:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive;...

Now I certainly do not have to post the scriptures coinciding with this do I?
PLINIUS SECUNDUS:
quick background
"Pliny was the governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Much of his correspondence has survived including a particular letter written circa AD 112 to the Roman emperor Trajan. This letter does not reference Christ directly, but it does establish several beliefs and practices of early Christians. This includes their loyalty to Christ even when it cost them their lives."
Quote:

In the meantime, the method I have observed towards those who have been denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were in fact Christians; if they confessed it, I repeated the question twice, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed.

Hopefully that helps you see the extreme threat to a simple belief system that if it was a hoax couldnt possibly survive...
Quote:

...They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to perform any wicked deed, never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to make it good; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food - but food of an ordinary and innocent kind

These are all in line with Jesus teachings, no one else came around teaching these things and I highly doubt everyone would be gathering around singing to Christ even under penalty of death if he wasnt even real...
CORNELIUS TACITUS
"Tacitus was a senator under Emperor Vespasian and later became governor of Asia. Around AD 116 in his work entitled Annals, he wrote of Emperor Nero and a fire which had swept Rome in AD 64"
as here
Quote:

Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate, and a most mischievous superstition thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome...

I always was found of tiberius given tiberium lol
GAIUS SUETONIUS TRANQUILLAS
"Suetonius was a chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian writing around AD 120 in his work Life of Claudius"
Quote:

Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the city

Christ was king of the Jews, the populace called them christians, its not unreasonable to assume hes referring to the christians here.
LUCIAN
"Lucian, the Greek satirist, wrote this rather scathing attack in The Death of Peregrine circa AD 170"
Quote:

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed upon them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws

THE TALMUD
"The Talmud is essentially the collection of Jewish oral traditions that were put into writing with additional commentary between the years of AD 70 and 200. From the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a includes"
Quote:

On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for forty days (saying): 'He is going to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of the Passover.

Yeshu is another name for Jesus in case you didnt know.
You can go here to read it in the orig: http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm but I pretty much outlined everything for you here. Its quite undeniable that Jesus at the very least existed as a person. The fact the gospels align with these other writings is quite amazing, it shows that the things of Jesus were quite common knowledge for people in that area. The apostles didnt have an internet or public distribution center for their writings so its impossible for them to have based their writings on the gospel accounts and vice versa. Its always come down to if you belive hes the Christ he claimed to be. People will always deny he was, even the high priests of the Jews at the time did and continued to do so. The fact Christianity spread so rapidly and quickly, still surviving to today and its given history really stands testimony enough that the gospel writers are not lying, people acknowledged a man Christ had died and rose from the grave otherwise others in the time period would have written about the lunacy of all these christians worshiping a man that never existed.
since I just jumped in here, Im not going to answer the rest of your posts aimed at that guy of course unless you wish me to. I wont be dodging anything, as I expect you not to either.

EDIT: just wanted to add to this already long post what happened to the disciples and their associates.
Matthew - killed by stabbing as ordered by King Hircanus
James, son of Alphaeous - crucified
James, brother of Jesus - thrown down from a height, stoned and then beaten to death at the hands of Ananias (circa AD 66)
John - tortured by boiling oil, exiled to Patmos in AD 95
Mark - burned during Roman emperor Trajan's reign
Peter - crucified upside-down by the gardens of Nero on the Vatican hill circa AD 64
Andrew - crucified on an "X" shaped cross by Aegeas, governor of the Edessenes, around AD 80
Philip - stoned and crucified in Hierapolis, Phrygia
Simon - crucified in Egypt under Trajan's reign
Thomas - death by spear thrust in Calamina, India
Thaddaeous - killed by arrows
James, son of Zebedee - killed by sword in AD 44 by order of King Herod Agrippa I of Judea
Bartholomew - beaten, flayed alive, crucified upside down, then beheaded

^Find me in history ANY religion that claimed that God was in human form, walked amongst them, did not foribly take over or preach through force, written about by the sources of said religion and outside sources wrote and corroborate their story of the "god" that walked among them, the founders of said religion were also tormented and died still claiming that their "god" was god, in such ways as pointed out above and grew rapidly lasting to even this day.

[Updated on: Wed, 25 April 2012 15:57]

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