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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #463839 is a reply to message #463804]

Wed, 07 March 2012 09:29

Spoony
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eatcow wrote on Wed, 07 March 2012 05:57

I gave you the historical sources (the list of names). Here is what they have to say:

Cornelius Tacitus:
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."

Cornelius Tacitus (AD 56 – AD 117) - i.e. didn't live at the same time as Jesus was supposed to have lived, so the best you can say is he was repeating what he'd heard, this at a time and place when most people couldn't read or write. And all he says is that "Christus...suffered the extreme punishment"; hardly an uncommon thing at the hands of the Roman Empire, and furthermore it doesn't even identify him as Jesus. Christ is a title, not a name. Doesn't attribute anything supernatural to "Christ" either.

Quote:

Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas:
"Because the Jews of Rome caused continous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from the city."

Gaius Tranquillus (ca. 69/75 – after 130) - again, born long after Jesus is supposed to have died. Have any accounts from an actual contemporary of his?

and what he says is even less helpful than tacitus. furthermore, he describes Christians as "a group of people of a new and maleficent superstition"; he didn't seem to find it very convincing himself.

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Flavius Josephus:
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

Titus Flavius Josephus (37 – c. 100) - notice the recurring theme here? yet another source the best you can say of whom is that he is repeating what he'd heard.

and what is he repeating? this is the passage which most people think has been tampered with; maybe you're in the minority who thinks it hasn't? and the only unusual thing in the passage is that he had followers who considered him miraculous. given the time and place, i'm being generous when i call that unusual.

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Mara Bar-Serapion:
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."

...people don't even know when this was written, the earliest estimate i've seen is 73 AD. we're stuck with that recurring theme. i'll repeat the earlier question so you can't pretend you didn't see it: do you have any contemporary accounts?

as for what it says, he might just as well have said that if your society goes around executing people as wise as Socrates for not being the right religion, it's obvious got something seriously wrong with the way it's being run, and it'll probably end in tears. that would be more truthful than to say "god punished the society".

also, i'd be careful with this concept of "god punishes the jews for killing jesus".

Quote:

The Bible:
John 19:17-42, 20:1-29
Luke 23:26:56, 24:1-26
You can also find the same story in Mark and Matthew. Not going to look them up.

I can create a rather extensive list, but going to move on to your other remarks.

Then my question still has not been answered. Where did you get the historical evidence for very specifically detailed account of the disposal of Jesus' body? I've asked you like five times now, and all you've come up with is the odd passage from people who weren't alive at the time and were, at best, repeating what they'd heard.

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You need to reread what the Bible says about the flood and what I posted, they augment nicely as one example for the Bible's historicity. The Bible as History by Werner Keller is a book that deals with the Bible in terms of archaeology and history purely. Only read a few sections in it.

i've read the flood story, i'm not entirely sure you have. the story says the flood was created by a superbeing as a deliberate act of genocide, deliberately killing everything in the world besides a handful of humans and a few of each animal. this is plainly bullshit, and you should be glad it's bullshit because if it were true, it would be the single worst act of genocide ever.

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My God's torture chambers, really...
Remember what I said earlier, man has the choice, the free undamped will, to choose hell.

stop beating around the bush. two questions:
1. are people who are not the right religion going to be tortured for it
2. is that a good thing

Quote:

God does not wish it, but even some children disown their parents no matter how much the parents love their children.

what an awful analogy.

a child who "disowns" his parents actually knows who his parents are, presumably. the child acknowledges the parents' existence. what your analogy should say is "some children don't know who their parents are and therefore go through life as if they didn't have parents. the parents are understandably furious at this, because the parents love the child so much (so much so that the child doesn't know they exist), and so they send the child to a torture chamber as punishment."

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Again, you misread my argument. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead is a sign of his divinity. This implies his teaching as Son of God is true. Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is also another argument for Jesus' divinity. There is no contradiction here as you are trying to imply.

i think i hear the sound of a goalpost scraping along the ground.

boils down to two basic points.
1. if someone rises from the dead, that doesn't necessarily mean they're the one with the power.
2. power =/= goodness. that's basically another way of saying might is right.

Quote:

"that it was deliberately and systematically pumping out anti-semitism as a core teaching?"
As I said, state what year from what official council of the Catholic Church that proclaimed anti-antisemitism is ok, otherwise your statement here is derogatory and academically dishonest since you cannot provide historical evidence for it.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/timeline.htm

Quote:

If anti-antisemitism is rooted in the Bible, then please give us what passage.

this isn't the first time you've used the word "anti-antisemitism". i think you mean "antisemitism". but to answer the question, it's mainly based on the bit in one of the four gospels where pilate says he washes his hands of the blood of jesus, and "the Jews" cry out that the blood is on them and their children.

a ludicrous statement, of course, but one that's led to an enormous amount of misery throughout the centuries.

Quote:

The story of the priest was to show an example of Catholic persecution and that Catholicism is not the super anti Jewish organization as you like to hypothesize.
You will like this article, secular and they provide all the sources you've been craving. It talks about the origin of Nazism's Jewish hatred stemming from Martin Luther. Provides quotes from leading members of the Nazi party during the Nuremburg trials, and from Martin Luther. http://nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

i already knew luther was a fanatical anti-semite as well; the catholic church was by no means the only christian organisation guilty of anti-semitism.

Quote:

The source listed below talks about Nazi's persecuting Catholics. Over 5,600 Catholic clergy were executed. This does not include laity either.

That's awful. Truly awful. But I can honestly say that, because unlike you I'm firmly against people being horribly punished for not being the right religion.

Quote:

Finally, here is an article that instead of summarizing I am posting the link. It talks about the Catholic Church's role in hiding Jews during the war and the Pope's role.
http://www.catholic.com/documents/how-pius-xii-protected-jews

Here is a book if your interested that deal's with Hitler's attempts to kidnap/murder the Pope.
http://www.amazon.com/Special-Mission-Hitlers-Secret-Vatican/dp/0306814684

I'm aware of both of these things; it does not absolve the guilt of the Catholic Church.

Quote:

The Gospels do talk about the dead raising from the graves, but this does not mean zombie apocalypse, only accentuates your lack of Christian theological understanding. The city is a description of heaven, further supported in Revelations. The saints are the people who have not the stain of sin and dwell in heaven. When Jesus died, he opened up the gates of heaven. They were closed due to Adam and Eve's original sin. The Pharisees and Christianity teaches the bodily resurrection of those who go to heaven.

yet again, you're saying that what the bible means is not what it says. that is, after all, what "theology" basically is. and you have to do this, don't you, because what the bible actually says about this is a really ridiculous story that obviously didn't happen.

Quote:

Coming back to the universe. My original argument for the existence of the universe was that God created the universe. The next obvious question is does God exist. I provided you with two logical constructions for the existence of God, one of which also satisfies the origin of God.

Here is what you did:
1) you failed to address my two arguments repeatedly

that's an obvious lie, and one i've come to expect.

Quote:

2) you attacked or used derogatory phraseology on what I believed multiple times

this, on the other hand, is absolutely right.

Quote:

3) you dismissed arguments as drivel or stupid without further explanation

well, your arguments are drivel and they are stupid.

Quote:

4) you sent several wild goose chases that deal with all sorts of subjects but not what the original academic pursuit was

will you please try to be a bit more honest?

Quote:

5) out of all this you accuse me of being academically dishonest

fucking right i do.

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There isn't a truer description of love then this and every Christian agrees with it.

it certainly is different from your earlier definition of love, which was a euphemism for people being tortured for not being the right religion.

Quote:

If you actually wish to discuss the existence of the universe and God, and not go to myriads of random subjects where you have little historical or theological knowledge, then I'll continue. Otherwise, adios.

another one bites the dust. just remember on what footing you flee this argument.

- you haven't carried your point about the existence of any god, let alone a specific one.
- you haven't provided any contemporary accounts of jesus.
- you haven't given the slightest evidence for the very specifically detailed account of the disposal of jesus' body, and i asked you over and over again to do so. (is it so hard for you to be honest enough to admit you've got nothing?)
- you've defended the use of torture as a punishment for people who are not the right religion

if you're content to remain on such a terrible intellectual and moral position, then don't come back. if you'd rather redeem yourself, i'll still be here.

in either case, i encourage you to reflect on the fact that my opinion of your religion is lower than it was before you posted.

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[Updated on: Wed, 07 March 2012 10:04]

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		Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:33
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:28
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Mon, 30 January 2012 02:34
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: R315r4z0r on Mon, 30 January 2012 13:38
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 31 January 2012 06:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Tue, 31 January 2012 10:02
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 31 January 2012 11:27
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 31 January 2012 12:05
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		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Tue, 31 January 2012 12:45
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Rocko on Wed, 01 February 2012 10:07
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Wed, 01 February 2012 11:03
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: appshot on Wed, 01 February 2012 11:59
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Wed, 01 February 2012 15:51
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 02 February 2012 13:52
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Thu, 02 February 2012 14:32
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 02 February 2012 15:36
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Thu, 02 February 2012 19:22
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Fri, 03 February 2012 07:08
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Fri, 03 February 2012 08:14
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Sat, 04 February 2012 10:28
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Sat, 04 February 2012 13:52
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Starbuzz on Sat, 04 February 2012 15:13
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Sat, 04 February 2012 15:24
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Sat, 04 February 2012 21:04
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: appshot on Sat, 04 February 2012 18:56
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: eatcow on Mon, 27 February 2012 03:29
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Mon, 27 February 2012 05:08
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Mon, 27 February 2012 08:49
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Mon, 27 February 2012 09:51
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Mon, 27 February 2012 10:07
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: eatcow on Mon, 27 February 2012 13:56
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Mon, 27 February 2012 16:20
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: eatcow on Mon, 27 February 2012 20:21
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Mon, 27 February 2012 20:48
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: eatcow on Tue, 28 February 2012 00:11
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 28 February 2012 06:58
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Starbuzz on Tue, 28 February 2012 09:48
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Mon, 27 February 2012 10:12
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Tue, 28 February 2012 11:33
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Aircraftkiller on Mon, 27 February 2012 20:53
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Mon, 27 February 2012 21:43
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: eatcow on Tue, 28 February 2012 13:35
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 28 February 2012 14:09
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: eatcow on Wed, 07 March 2012 05:57
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Wed, 07 March 2012 09:29
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Wed, 07 March 2012 05:59
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: i0ncl0ud9 on Wed, 07 March 2012 23:44
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 08 March 2012 13:05
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 08 March 2012 14:17
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Fri, 09 March 2012 08:41
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Fri, 09 March 2012 09:07
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: eatcow on Sun, 15 April 2012 09:21
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Sun, 15 April 2012 10:16
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Sun, 15 April 2012 10:46
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: F1r3st0rm on Sun, 15 April 2012 11:24
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: eatcow on Sun, 15 April 2012 23:52
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Mon, 16 April 2012 03:04
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 17 April 2012 13:38
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Wed, 25 April 2012 15:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Wed, 25 April 2012 18:36
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 26 April 2012 05:38
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 26 April 2012 06:39
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Mon, 30 April 2012 11:11
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Thu, 26 April 2012 09:51
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 26 April 2012 11:01
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Thu, 26 April 2012 12:55
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Thu, 26 April 2012 14:17
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Fri, 27 April 2012 13:25
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Sat, 28 April 2012 18:27
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Tue, 08 May 2012 16:32
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Tue, 08 May 2012 23:54
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Mon, 16 April 2012 04:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Mon, 16 April 2012 07:14
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Mon, 16 April 2012 10:56
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Thu, 26 April 2012 05:42
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Sat, 28 April 2012 00:37
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: fredcow9 on Sat, 28 April 2012 17:36
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Gohax on Mon, 30 April 2012 22:02
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Mon, 30 April 2012 22:26
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Wed, 02 May 2012 10:56
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: YesNoMayb on Wed, 02 May 2012 14:27
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Wed, 02 May 2012 14:42
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: ehhh on Wed, 02 May 2012 14:46
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Wed, 02 May 2012 19:37
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: YesNoMayb on Wed, 02 May 2012 16:12
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Wed, 02 May 2012 20:08
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Wed, 02 May 2012 21:44
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: TankClash on Thu, 03 May 2012 04:11
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Thu, 03 May 2012 04:16
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Fri, 04 May 2012 12:40
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Fri, 04 May 2012 12:58
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Fri, 04 May 2012 12:59
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Sat, 05 May 2012 16:55
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: appshot on Sun, 06 May 2012 00:53
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Jerad2142 on Sun, 06 May 2012 08:45
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: ehhh on Sun, 06 May 2012 09:14
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Sun, 06 May 2012 09:33
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: ehhh on Sun, 06 May 2012 10:05
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: iRANian on Sun, 06 May 2012 10:49
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Wed, 09 May 2012 00:48
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: liquidv2 on Wed, 09 May 2012 01:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Major-Payne on Wed, 09 May 2012 13:50
		Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests By: Spoony on Wed, 09 May 2012 14:41

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