Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Questions I would like to pose to athiests
Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #463804 is a reply to message #463097] |
Wed, 07 March 2012 05:57   |
eatcow
Messages: 22 Registered: April 2011
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I gave you the historical sources (the list of names). Here is what they have to say:
Cornelius Tacitus:
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed."
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas:
"Because the Jews of Rome caused continous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, [Claudius] expelled them from the city."
Flavius Josephus:
"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
Mara Bar-Serapion:
"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given."
The Bible:
John 19:17-42, 20:1-29
Luke 23:26:56, 24:1-26
You can also find the same story in Mark and Matthew. Not going to look them up.
I can create a rather extensive list, but going to move on to your other remarks.
"you wanna pretend that what the bible says isn't what it means"
No, I do not wish to pretend for this would be inaccurate, illogical, and not truthful. However, what I was saying what you were confusing my argument for the Bible's historicity with people's interpretations. What the Bible says and what people think it says can be two different things, this is an interpretation issue. If you are only looking for developing the historical reliability of the Bible, instead of trying to argue theology, this is another task and the majority of historians today consider the Bible to be historically accurate.
You need to reread what the Bible says about the flood and what I posted, they augment nicely as one example for the Bible's historicity. The Bible as History by Werner Keller is a book that deals with the Bible in terms of archaeology and history purely. Only read a few sections in it.
My God's torture chambers, really...
Remember what I said earlier, man has the choice, the free undamped will, to choose hell. God does not wish it, but even some children disown their parents no matter how much the parents love their children.
Again, you misread my argument. The resurrection of Jesus from the dead is a sign of his divinity. This implies his teaching as Son of God is true. Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead is also another argument for Jesus' divinity. There is no contradiction here as you are trying to imply. My bringing up of the devil and his power is to show you that I am not arguing that someone with magical powers imply they must be the good guy. However, what I do show is the origin of his power and explain as to why God permits the devil's mischievousness.
"that it was deliberately and systematically pumping out anti-semitism as a core teaching?"
As I said, state what year from what official council of the Catholic Church that proclaimed anti-antisemitism is ok, otherwise your statement here is derogatory and academically dishonest since you cannot provide historical evidence for it. If anti-antisemitism is rooted in the Bible, then please give us what passage.
WW2 history time: "one individual priest? you think that absolves the guilt of the church?"
The story of the priest was to show an example of Catholic persecution and that Catholicism is not the super anti Jewish organization as you like to hypothesize.
You will like this article, secular and they provide all the sources you've been craving. It talks about the origin of Nazism's Jewish hatred stemming from Martin Luther. Provides quotes from leading members of the Nazi party during the Nuremburg trials, and from Martin Luther. http://nobeliefs.com/luther.htm
The source listed below talks about Nazi's persecuting Catholics. Over 5,600 Catholic clergy were executed. This does not include laity either.
Craughwell, Thomas J., The Gentile Holocaust Catholic Culture, Accessed July 18, 2008
Finally, here is an article that instead of summarizing I am posting the link. It talks about the Catholic Church's role in hiding Jews during the war and the Pope's role.
http://www.catholic.com/documents/how-pius-xii-protected-jews
Here is a book if your interested that deal's with Hitler's attempts to kidnap/murder the Pope.
http://www.amazon.com/Special-Mission-Hitlers-Secret-Vatican/dp/0306814684
The Gospels do talk about the dead raising from the graves, but this does not mean zombie apocalypse, only accentuates your lack of Christian theological understanding. The city is a description of heaven, further supported in Revelations. The saints are the people who have not the stain of sin and dwell in heaven. When Jesus died, he opened up the gates of heaven. They were closed due to Adam and Eve's original sin. The Pharisees and Christianity teaches the bodily resurrection of those who go to heaven.
Coming back to the universe. My original argument for the existence of the universe was that God created the universe. The next obvious question is does God exist. I provided you with two logical constructions for the existence of God, one of which also satisfies the origin of God.
Here is what you did:
1) you failed to address my two arguments repeatedly
2) you attacked or used derogatory phraseology on what I believed multiple times
3) you dismissed arguments as drivel or stupid without further explanation
4) you sent several wild goose chases that deal with all sorts of subjects but not what the original academic pursuit was
5) out of all this you accuse me of being academically dishonest
I leave it at that.
I am not going to post any further based upon my list of five points. If you actually wish to discuss the existence of the universe and God, and not go to myriads of random subjects where you have little historical or theological knowledge, then I'll continue. Otherwise, adios.
My final quote: 1 Cor 13:4-13
"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love."
There isn't a truer description of love then this and every Christian agrees with it.
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Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:33
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Tue, 28 February 2012 06:58
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Starbuzz on Tue, 28 February 2012 09:48
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Mon, 27 February 2012 10:12
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Mon, 27 February 2012 21:43
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: eatcow on Tue, 28 February 2012 13:35
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Tue, 28 February 2012 14:09
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: eatcow on Wed, 07 March 2012 05:57
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Wed, 07 March 2012 09:29
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Wed, 07 March 2012 05:59
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Thu, 08 March 2012 14:17
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Fri, 09 March 2012 09:07
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: eatcow on Sun, 15 April 2012 09:21
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Sun, 15 April 2012 10:46
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: eatcow on Sun, 15 April 2012 23:52
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Tue, 17 April 2012 13:38
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: fredcow9 on Wed, 25 April 2012 15:50
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Wed, 25 April 2012 18:36
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Thu, 26 April 2012 06:39
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: fredcow9 on Thu, 26 April 2012 09:51
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Thu, 26 April 2012 11:01
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: fredcow9 on Thu, 26 April 2012 12:55
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Thu, 26 April 2012 14:17
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: fredcow9 on Fri, 27 April 2012 13:25
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Sat, 28 April 2012 18:27
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Tue, 08 May 2012 23:54
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Mon, 16 April 2012 04:50
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Mon, 16 April 2012 10:56
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Thu, 26 April 2012 05:42
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: fredcow9 on Sat, 28 April 2012 17:36
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Gohax on Mon, 30 April 2012 22:02
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: liquidv2 on Mon, 30 April 2012 22:26
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Wed, 02 May 2012 10:56
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Wed, 02 May 2012 14:42
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: ehhh on Wed, 02 May 2012 14:46
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Wed, 02 May 2012 20:08
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Thu, 03 May 2012 04:16
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Fri, 04 May 2012 12:58
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Fri, 04 May 2012 12:59
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: appshot on Sun, 06 May 2012 00:53
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: ehhh on Sun, 06 May 2012 09:14
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Sun, 06 May 2012 09:33
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: ehhh on Sun, 06 May 2012 10:05
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: iRANian on Sun, 06 May 2012 10:49
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests
By: Spoony on Wed, 09 May 2012 14:41
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