Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » don't ask don't tell
| Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442443 is a reply to message #442441] |
Tue, 11 January 2011 07:35   |
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| Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 13:02 |
| CarrierII wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 03:58 |
From the perspective of those who hold faith, atheists attempting to enforce secularism is, I'm sure, obnoxious.
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Yes, for exactly the same reason that from a dictator's perspective, democracy and those who insist upon it are "obnoxious". EXACTLY the same reason.
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Doesn't stop it causing offense, I never claimed it was a reason to stop enforcing state secularism.
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Does it help if I phrase it as "Your God, or insistance upon a lack thereof,"?
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No; if there really was a god I'd still be very firmly in favour of secular democracy.
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A hypothetical God might not be in favour of secularism, but that's an entire discussion of its own. 
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| Starbuzzz |
Besides, theists are the ones that "tell that they are right." Atheists "tell how they are right and give ample reason to back it up to irrefutable levels." This thread is a good example.
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"Without faith, I [God] am nothing" - and I'm not even a thiest.
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it's true. if you don't buy into the ridiculous con known as "faith", religions do look very silly indeed.
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Faith is the belief in something. We speak of "faith in humanity", for instance.
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I did say, "which side is being obnoxious?" since it is only the dogmatic theists that go to such lengths to codify their beliefs as law (re: voter guide). They have done this and gotten away with this for centuries. So now finally, atheists having the power to openly challenge them DOES NOT equal atheists being obnoxious as well. But this is what your original statement stupidly implied.
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Only the "dogmatic thiests"? I note that many countries encode secularism as law... if only to keep the thiests from arguing.
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which is not the same thing at all. Having a secular country is nothing at all comparable to wanting a Christian (for example) country.
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Not from your perspective, doesn't make your perspective (IE, secularism) the best (or indeed, worst) option from someone else's perspective, though.
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This bit is interesting, emphasis added:
| Starbuzzz |
So in conclusion, adding the "lack thereof" in your original statement makes your hypothesis partially wrong (due to "lack thereof" being present) while removing "lack thereof" makes it fully correct. It is those of faith that cause problems by attempting to subjugate others while those of no faith fight the injustice of the intrusive actions of the faithful. Both actions are not equal; one side is justified in their actions; the other side is SOL steaming out of excuses while at the same time, they overstep their boundaries and have greatly affected the peace-of-mind of individuals that want no part in their dogma.
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Apparently, athiests have never attempted to subjugate anyone...
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that was a waste of a sentence
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Starbuzz is attempting to suggest that only thiests do wrong. I don't think that is accurate, I just summed it up poetically.
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As mentioned, upholding equality is fine, that includes permitting people to hold faith. You are seem to be pushing for a complete removal of faith (from the world), because a few people use it as an excuse or reason to do evil.
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no, not a complete removal of religion, just a limit on the enormous power it has, much of which is not just "used to do evil", but IS evil. Telling someone they're going to be tortured for not agreeing with your religion? THIS IS EVIL, and it's a mainstream religious position - you don't need to talk to the bin ladens of the world to find it. It's propagated to children all over the world in supposedly civilised countries and we fucking tolerate it, why?
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I have several Christian friends who keep their faith to themselves, and have never once asserted to myself, nor anyone else, as far as I'm aware, that non-believers will be "tortured", or otherwise persecuted or punished.
Once again, it's the "being obnoxious" thing - forcibly telling people they will "go to hell" if they don't believe is wrong. (Free speech otherwise protects them. If they wish to post stupid billboards, that's fine. We can all have a good laugh)
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| Starbuzzz |
And so, here is your corrected statement:
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Being obnoxious about your faith is the real cause of problems relating to faith.
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Excellent. Makes perfect sense now, doesn't it? The faithful are not creating any problems by just existing and minding their own fucking business (example; Amish)
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given how badly they mistreat their children, i would hope for religion's sake that a better example of "not creating any problems" could be found than the Amish
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but when they act obnoxious as the wing-nut fanatics (re: voter guide, "repent or burn in hell" billboards, homophobic laws), they create the problem (and fully deserve any shit that comes their way). And please, I think the atheist bus ads are lame as well but atleast you can either take or leave it as it is because nobody is threatened with hellfire if they reject it.
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Some people find the lack of hellfire a scary idea. They won't be able to take it or leave it.
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i expect a heroin addict finds the lack of heroin a scary idea, it's still much better for him
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Implying that all faith is as bad as heroin. Again, needing to distinguish between harmless faith (eg: attending church) and harmful faith (eg: encouraging radicalisation of communities, children etc).
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Athiests, are, at the end of the day, human beings. Some human beings are evil, and will try to do evil things. The venn diagram will overlap; I'm sure somewhere in the world right now, there is an athiestic Gov't advisor pushing an evil agenda.
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and if there was, you'd find atheists in civilised countries protesting against it and sticking up for the victims of the regime no matter what religion the victims happened to be.
yes, some humans are evil and will do evil things, but in an atheist's case there's no holy book telling him to do evil things, as - for example - the bible and qur'an repeatedly do.
sure, some atheists are bad, because atheism is simply the rejection of theism and that's all it is. it doesn't necessarily say anything else about you. it's like saying some non-smokers live unhealthy lifestyles.
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I already agree. See harmful faith vs harmless faith.
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And you have irrefutable proof of God's non-existence? Wow. The whole point of faith, is... well... faith.
Athiests believe there is no God. Unless you show me proof, I will continue to say so.
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i can see that despite supposedly not being a theist, you've fallen for the faith con.
Please explain what is good about "faith", i.e. the concept that lack of evidence is a good thing; that it is praiseworthy to believe things without a good reason to believe them.
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Faith that some people wanted me to be alive stopped me killing myself. I can't prove my worth to them, to myself, but it stopped me.
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secondly, you also seem to've fallen for the theist's definition of "atheism". an atheist needn't assert the non-existence of any particular god; he simply rejects theism, i.e. the EXTREMELY SPECIFIC claims made by religions.
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I apologise.
Renguard is a wonderful initiative
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| halokid wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 08:46 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 15:35 |
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the hell is that?
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don't ask don't tell
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Re: don't ask don't tell
By: snpr1101 on Thu, 16 December 2010 18:17 |
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Re: don't ask don't tell
By: Dover on Fri, 17 December 2010 00:19 |
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By: bmr_71 on Thu, 16 December 2010 19:54 |
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Re: don't ask don't tell
By: Spoony on Thu, 16 December 2010 15:35 |
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Re: don't ask don't tell
By: bmr_71 on Thu, 16 December 2010 22:46 |
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Re: don't ask don't tell
By: Crimson on Fri, 17 December 2010 05:49 |
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Re: don't ask don't tell
By: snpr1101 on Fri, 17 December 2010 07:08 |
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Re: don't ask don't tell
By: bmr_71 on Fri, 17 December 2010 09:53 |
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Re: don't ask don't tell
By: Altzan on Fri, 17 December 2010 11:09 |
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By: Tunaman on Sat, 18 December 2010 04:33 |
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By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 09:16 |
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By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:19 |
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By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:23 |
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By: Altzan on Tue, 21 December 2010 11:50 |
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By: NukeIt15 on Tue, 21 December 2010 00:46 |
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By: snpr1101 on Tue, 21 December 2010 06:15 |
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By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 08:05 |
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By: Rocko on Tue, 21 December 2010 22:22 |
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By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:30 |
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By: Spoony on Fri, 24 December 2010 08:29 |
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By: Dover on Fri, 24 December 2010 10:15 |
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By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 16:10 |
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By: Rocko on Wed, 22 December 2010 16:18 |
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By: Hitman on Wed, 22 December 2010 23:43 |
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By: Altzan on Fri, 31 December 2010 16:05 |
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By: Altzan on Fri, 31 December 2010 23:35 |
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By: NukeIt15 on Fri, 24 December 2010 22:58 |
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By: liquidv2 on Sat, 25 December 2010 07:20 |
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By: liquidv2 on Fri, 31 December 2010 19:30 |
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pulling in and out again...
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Re: pulling in and out again...
By: Dover on Wed, 05 January 2011 11:43 |
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By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 06:02 |
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By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 07:56 |
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