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Re: don't ask don't tell [message #442441 is a reply to message #442436]

Tue, 11 January 2011 06:02

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CarrierII wrote on Tue, 11 January 2011 03:58

From the perspective of those who hold faith, atheists attempting to enforce secularism is, I'm sure, obnoxious.

Yes, for exactly the same reason that from a dictator's perspective, democracy and those who insist upon it are "obnoxious". EXACTLY the same reason.

Quote:

Does it help if I phrase it as "Your God, or insistance upon a lack thereof,"?

No; if there really was a god I'd still be very firmly in favour of secular democracy.

Quote:

Starbuzzz

Besides, theists are the ones that "tell that they are right." Atheists "tell how they are right and give ample reason to back it up to irrefutable levels." This thread is a good example.

"Without faith, I [God] am nothing" - and I'm not even a thiest.

it's true. if you don't buy into the ridiculous con known as "faith", religions do look very silly indeed.

Quote:

I did say, "which side is being obnoxious?" since it is only the dogmatic theists that go to such lengths to codify their beliefs as law (re: voter guide). They have done this and gotten away with this for centuries. So now finally, atheists having the power to openly challenge them DOES NOT equal atheists being obnoxious as well. But this is what your original statement stupidly implied.

Only the "dogmatic thiests"? I note that many countries encode secularism as law... if only to keep the thiests from arguing.

which is not the same thing at all. Having a secular country is nothing at all comparable to wanting a Christian (for example) country.

Quote:

This bit is interesting, emphasis added:

Starbuzzz

So in conclusion, adding the "lack thereof" in your original statement makes your hypothesis partially wrong (due to "lack thereof" being present) while removing "lack thereof" makes it fully correct. It is those of faith that cause problems by attempting to subjugate others while those of no faith fight the injustice of the intrusive actions of the faithful. Both actions are not equal; one side is justified in their actions; the other side is SOL steaming out of excuses while at the same time, they overstep their boundaries and have greatly affected the peace-of-mind of individuals that want no part in their dogma.

Apparently, athiests have never attempted to subjugate anyone...

that was a waste of a sentence

Quote:

As mentioned, upholding equality is fine, that includes permitting people to hold faith. You are seem to be pushing for a complete removal of faith (from the world), because a few people use it as an excuse or reason to do evil.

no, not a complete removal of religion, just a limit on the enormous power it has, much of which is not just "used to do evil", but IS evil. Telling someone they're going to be tortured for not agreeing with your religion? THIS IS EVIL, and it's a mainstream religious position - you don't need to talk to the bin ladens of the world to find it. It's propagated to children all over the world in supposedly civilised countries and we fucking tolerate it, why?

[quote]

Starbuzzz

And so, here is your corrected statement:

Quote:

Being obnoxious about your faith is the real cause of problems relating to faith.

Excellent. Makes perfect sense now, doesn't it? The faithful are not creating any problems by just existing and minding their own fucking business (example; Amish)

given how badly they mistreat their children, i would hope for religion's sake that a better example of "not creating any problems" could be found than the Amish

Quote:

but when they act obnoxious as the wing-nut fanatics (re: voter guide, "repent or burn in hell" billboards, homophobic laws), they create the problem (and fully deserve any shit that comes their way). And please, I think the atheist bus ads are lame as well but atleast you can either take or leave it as it is because nobody is threatened with hellfire if they reject it.

Some people find the lack of hellfire a scary idea. They won't be able to take it or leave it.

i expect a heroin addict finds the lack of heroin a scary idea, it's still much better for him

Quote:

Athiests, are, at the end of the day, human beings. Some human beings are evil, and will try to do evil things. The venn diagram will overlap; I'm sure somewhere in the world right now, there is an athiestic Gov't advisor pushing an evil agenda.

and if there was, you'd find atheists in civilised countries protesting against it and sticking up for the victims of the regime no matter what religion the victims happened to be.

yes, some humans are evil and will do evil things, but in an atheist's case there's no holy book telling him to do evil things, as - for example - the bible and qur'an repeatedly do.

sure, some atheists are bad, because atheism is simply the rejection of theism and that's all it is. it doesn't necessarily say anything else about you. it's like saying some non-smokers live unhealthy lifestyles.

Quote:

And you have irrefutable proof of God's non-existence? Wow. The whole point of faith, is... well... faith.

Athiests believe there is no God. Unless you show me proof, I will continue to say so.

i can see that despite supposedly not being a theist, you've fallen for the faith con.

Please explain what is good about "faith", i.e. the concept that lack of evidence is a good thing; that it is praiseworthy to believe things without a good reason to believe them.

secondly, you also seem to've fallen for the theist's definition of "atheism". an atheist needn't assert the non-existence of any particular god; he simply rejects theism, i.e. the EXTREMELY SPECIFIC claims made by religions.

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[Message index]

		don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 16 December 2010 11:07
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Thu, 16 December 2010 12:29
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Thu, 16 December 2010 18:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Fri, 17 December 2010 00:19
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 16 December 2010 13:23
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Thu, 16 December 2010 19:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 16 December 2010 20:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Fri, 17 December 2010 08:34
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 17 December 2010 12:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 17 December 2010 14:41
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Thu, 16 December 2010 13:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 16 December 2010 15:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Thu, 16 December 2010 22:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Crimson on Fri, 17 December 2010 05:49
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Fri, 17 December 2010 07:08
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Fri, 17 December 2010 09:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 17 December 2010 11:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Fri, 17 December 2010 13:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Tunaman on Sat, 18 December 2010 04:33
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 09:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:19
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Wed, 05 January 2011 15:14
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 05 January 2011 16:25
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Wed, 05 January 2011 16:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:23
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 18 December 2010 13:57
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Sat, 18 December 2010 14:34
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 18 December 2010 15:50
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Tue, 21 December 2010 11:50
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Sat, 18 December 2010 15:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Mon, 20 December 2010 23:57
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: NukeIt15 on Tue, 21 December 2010 00:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Tue, 21 December 2010 04:38
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Tue, 21 December 2010 06:15
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Tue, 21 December 2010 06:42
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Tue, 21 December 2010 12:10
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Tue, 21 December 2010 15:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 21 December 2010 15:50
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 08:05
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Tue, 21 December 2010 19:34
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Wed, 22 December 2010 03:51
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Wed, 22 December 2010 04:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 21 December 2010 21:04
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Tue, 21 December 2010 22:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Tue, 21 December 2010 22:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: appshot on Wed, 22 December 2010 02:25
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 09:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:32
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 22 December 2010 17:52
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:08
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:52
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 23 December 2010 17:01
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Thu, 23 December 2010 21:15
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 24 December 2010 08:14
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Fri, 24 December 2010 08:29
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Fri, 24 December 2010 10:15
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 24 December 2010 12:11
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 23 December 2010 21:59
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: SSADMVR on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:38
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Wed, 22 December 2010 10:57
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 23 December 2010 02:42
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 22 December 2010 16:10
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Wed, 22 December 2010 16:18
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Wed, 22 December 2010 17:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 22:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 22 December 2010 23:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Hitman on Wed, 22 December 2010 23:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 23 December 2010 04:05
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Thu, 23 December 2010 04:11
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Hitman on Thu, 23 December 2010 05:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Thu, 23 December 2010 16:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 23 December 2010 18:14
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 23 December 2010 18:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 23 December 2010 18:36
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 23 December 2010 21:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 23 December 2010 22:45
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Fri, 24 December 2010 01:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: snpr1101 on Fri, 24 December 2010 01:45
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Sun, 09 January 2011 03:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Sun, 09 January 2011 12:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Sun, 09 January 2011 15:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Fri, 24 December 2010 07:01
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 24 December 2010 11:13
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 24 December 2010 11:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 24 December 2010 14:00
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 24 December 2010 21:48
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Fri, 24 December 2010 18:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Dover on Sat, 25 December 2010 10:51
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Sat, 25 December 2010 14:28
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 31 December 2010 09:55
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 31 December 2010 16:05
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 31 December 2010 19:06
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 31 December 2010 23:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: NukeIt15 on Fri, 24 December 2010 22:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Sat, 25 December 2010 01:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: liquidv2 on Sat, 25 December 2010 07:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: liquidv2 on Fri, 31 December 2010 19:30
		pulling in and out again... By: Muad Dib15 on Fri, 31 December 2010 22:29
		Re: pulling in and out again... By: nikki6ixx on Sat, 01 January 2011 10:50
		Re: pulling in and out again... By: Dover on Wed, 05 January 2011 11:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 05 January 2011 17:56
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 06 January 2011 17:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 05 January 2011 21:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 05 January 2011 23:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Thu, 06 January 2011 03:00
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Thu, 06 January 2011 08:41
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Jerad2142 on Thu, 06 January 2011 17:29
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:25
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:32
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:47
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Wed, 05 January 2011 23:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:11
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:40
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 06 January 2011 12:44
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Thu, 06 January 2011 14:44
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 15:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: appshot on Thu, 06 January 2011 15:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: bmr_71 on Thu, 06 January 2011 18:33
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Thu, 06 January 2011 19:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Fri, 07 January 2011 09:32
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Fri, 07 January 2011 14:46
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 07 January 2011 19:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:07
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 07 January 2011 21:16
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 07 January 2011 21:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 07 January 2011 21:55
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: InternetThug on Fri, 07 January 2011 22:00
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Fri, 07 January 2011 23:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Sat, 08 January 2011 08:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Sat, 08 January 2011 11:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Muad Dib15 on Sat, 08 January 2011 14:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Sat, 08 January 2011 15:42
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Sat, 08 January 2011 17:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Sat, 08 January 2011 09:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: kadoosh on Sat, 08 January 2011 09:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Sat, 08 January 2011 15:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: HaTe on Sat, 08 January 2011 16:13
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: grant89uk on Sun, 09 January 2011 09:33
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Sun, 09 January 2011 13:45
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Sun, 09 January 2011 14:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Mon, 10 January 2011 10:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Mon, 10 January 2011 11:01
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Mon, 10 January 2011 13:21
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Mon, 10 January 2011 12:18
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Mon, 10 January 2011 13:22
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Rocko on Mon, 10 January 2011 18:20
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Starbuzzz on Mon, 10 January 2011 22:23
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: nikki6ixx on Tue, 11 January 2011 00:10
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Tue, 11 January 2011 01:43
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 02:58
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Tue, 11 January 2011 04:41
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Herr Surth on Tue, 11 January 2011 05:36
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 06:02
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 07:35
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 07:56
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Tue, 11 January 2011 08:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 09:38
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Tue, 11 January 2011 11:09
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Wed, 12 January 2011 06:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 06:24
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Wed, 12 January 2011 07:59
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 11:28
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Wed, 12 January 2011 13:17
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 14:06
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: CarrierII on Tue, 11 January 2011 12:03
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Muad Dib15 on Tue, 11 January 2011 22:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Tue, 11 January 2011 23:51
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Wed, 12 January 2011 04:59
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Altzan on Wed, 12 January 2011 06:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 12 January 2011 16:12
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Wed, 12 January 2011 23:39
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 13 January 2011 01:18
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 01:49
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Spoony on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:30
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:53
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 04:54
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:37
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: reborn on Thu, 13 January 2011 02:49
		Re: don't ask don't tell By: Pyr0man1c on Thu, 13 January 2011 03:01

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