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Re: BHS Ladder [message #438717 is a reply to message #438707] Mon, 01 November 2010 05:51 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
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liquidv2 wrote on Sun, 31 October 2010 18:23

you assume i didn't want to because i can't be bothered or wouldn't lower myself to paying or running anything for renegade
not saying i did, but what if i really liked the idea, but didn't do it because i felt it would be pointless trying to make a ladder for renegade that spoony did not endorse? i think it's possible other people felt the same way

i think you're focusing too much on the excuses and not enough on the complete absence of effort or results.

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now you finally understand!
i guess my thinking is skewed
i figure that since you're the only person that can really run a renegade ladder (whether you'll openly admit this or not) you would do

why? i don't have magic powers, i don't have access to some source of wisdom that's denied everyone else. if your statement boils down to "you're the only one with the sufficient dedication" then it doesn't belong in an argument against me, does it?

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you've lost me there.

how would allowing soul to play have nearly jeopardized the ren league at cw.cc? the uproar was caused by him being banned
you acted correctly but that nearly resulted in clanwars.cc cutting Renegade off of their site

uh no, letting him play was what probably would've caused that. like i said, the global admins thought that me and blkst0rm were the only decent people in a community that was - aside from we two - a complete cesspool and not at all worth CLAN WARS's resources to host. the exception were the two admins who ran things as fairly as we did no matter how retarded the general community was being at the time.

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i'm not so sure it's that they couldn't be bothered
i think people realize that you do a better job than they actually could (minus a select few people like trooprm02 - i've read clanwars.cc a handful of times and each time he was trying to tell you why you suck at what you're doing and how he could do better) and figured there was no point in trying
like i've said Spoony is clanwars.cc; people do not believe clanwars can succeed without you at this point

well, if the entire anti-pointsfix crowd (everyone except me and whiskey, supposedly) clubbed together and still couldn't with their combined might do better than spoony, you might think this would make people think that spoony's doing something right and perhaps, just perhaps, his decisions are worth some respect.

instead we seem to've had a situation where the community needed spoony to survive just as long as spoony didn't make any decisions. perhaps i can just wave a flag from the touchline or something.

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and because i didn't run a clan ladder for renegade means i have no credibility on the subject? i'm not saying i do have credibility on the subject, but that thinking is flawed
you should not criticize politicians or what they do because you've never been one yourself - you have no credibility on the subject

no, that analogy does not work at all. a politician is your employee. your vote decides who gets the job, your taxes pay their salary, they're (supposed to be, at least) there to serve you. people always compare the clanwars league to a government, and the analogy fails on every level. it's more like a cinema or a bowling alley that the owner lets you use for free. i let you play there, or you could play in someone else's bowling alley, or make your own, or not go bowling at all. if you play in my bowling alley you play by my rules, if i decide that there's no smoking or whatever. you can smoke in someone else's bowling alley for all i care. you can smoke out in the street for all i care. you can make your own bowling alley where smoking is allowed for all i care.
in my bowling alley, thou shalt not smoke.

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it looks to me that you're insinuating things about people but when i mention it or point it out you call me a liar
it's a trap
here's what i got from what you were saying: "these people want me to change my ladder but aren't willing to go make their own community to have the proposed changes to my ladder - that makes them douchebags"
i also got this: "these people want me to change what i'm doing to cater to their wants instead of thanking me for hosting it - that makes them douchebags"
am i incorrect in saying this?

i would have thought that you have your hands full enough with things i have said without needing to deal with things i didn't say.

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in the past other people have made claims and you dismissed them, but when you made claims you treated them as fact

"treated them as fact" is your euphemism for "explained why they were right", and "dismissed them" is your reverse-euphemism for "explained why they were wrong".

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one time i remember is when you accused MSGTPain of hating you due to you catching his friends cheating in a community war, and when i asked if you had proof of that you never responded

i'd certainly have responded to a question about MSGTPain, unless you're talking about the thread that got locked (with one of my posts bizarrely deleted right before)

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i suppose i'm glad to hear you would agree with me if only you were perceptive enough to see what's right in front of you.

it seems to me you've decided that clanwars.cc is entirely represented by simpee and orca
one "couldn't be bothered" to host a league whereas the other "wouldn't lower himself to that"
i don't believe that all of clanwars.cc can be described by either of these two players

and yet you can't point to a clanwars player who actually did DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, can you? like i said, you're focusing too much on their excuses and ignoring the fact that nobody can be found who put in the slightest effort.

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how do you know simpee was telling the truth? it's possible he would have liked to but felt it would not work and didn't want to get flak for it

i just had the gut feeling that simpee was telling the truth for a change, and his explanation certainly fit the known facts.

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eh? one of the main reasons i hosted the clanwars ladder is because no fucker else on renegade could be bothered.

well that was very kind of you
didn't people host it before yourself?

yes, for quite a significant period of time actually. CLAN WARS set up the league a few months after the game's release (in large part due to the absolute shittiness of Westwood's official clan ladder). that would have been around summer 2002. i didn't become an admin until summer 2005.

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perhaps someone else would have had you not stepped in

you must have done a good job because after you came along no one else really wanted to try

it's hard to square these comments with getting called the "worst admin in history" whenever i make a decision that someone disapproves of

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perhaps they thought they could not do a better job than you do or did and that their efforts would be pointless
you said yourself that clanwars.cc died because you stopped playing - perhaps there's some validity to my words

you're confusing "spoony playing in the league" with "spoony being the admin"

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there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. no rebuttal necessary, the quote speaks for itself.

it's a simple question - you claimed that banning soul almost killed renegade at cw.cc

i would never say something as ridiculous as that.

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i don't disagree with you banning him for breaking a rule but i simply raised a question - do you think the uproar may have been averted had you just let it go and made everyone else happy?

what do you mean by "uproar"? the community going apeshit at me and blkstorm? well, we weren't to know what a terrible low the community was about to sink to.

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alright, you later covered this, but would it have gotten clanwars.cc off your back? even if it was for entirely wrong reasons?

uh no, you've got this totally wrong. the higher-ups thought me and blkst0rm were the only things good enough in the renegade league to justify keeping it alive, precisely because we were playing it by the rules and fairness and honesty instead of just doing whatever these idiots wanted.

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oh dear, you completely changed the subject.

nope, i didn't at all change the subject
i understand that in your eyes the only people that didn't want the pointmod used in clanwars were the only people that posted in that topic, which you named
i believe that may be untrue

if it is, we can refer to my earlier statement on the subject. either they couldn't marshal their thoughts to justify their views in the debate thread that the admin specifically put there for their benefit, or they didn't dare join the debate for fear of being proved wrong. in neither case am i going to do what they want.

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i still don't know what whiskey thought either way, even if he told you he wanted it used
maybe he didn't and wanted to please you
i don't think it matters much either way whether he did or not, just saying

that's feeble of you. you made so many posts and PMs saying whiskey was obviously only speaking in favour of the pointsfix because he was spoony's renadmin at the time. this was flat out untrue, and you just swallowed the bullshit the anti-pointsfix crowd were putting out at the time; that anybody who likes the pointsfix MUST have some hidden agenda. it's an odd thing to think from someone whose only admissible evidence is "here's how many people like it or don't like it". once again, the game is rigged.

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a lot of people don't like posting things if they know they're going to get criticized for it

yeah, they like just saying things and expecting it to be accepted without giving anyone the platform to challenge it.

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so perhaps they saw simpee and the others trying to tell you why they wanted the original points used and the way you tried to tell them their opinions were wrong and decided against posting at all
though since you only care about debate in determining how clanwars.cc is run it wouldn't have mattered either way to you

that's right. it's a very similar situation to the "nobody else hosted a clan ladder" scenario. i'm focusing on the complete lack of effort or success, you're focusing on the excuses for that lack - even going so far as to make them on other peoples' behalf.

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i just have a hard time understanding why you do what you do, that's all
am i not allowed to ask you why you do what you do in regards to running a clan league or tell you why i think it makes no sense because i don't or haven't run one myself? i don't agree with that thinking, and i covered it earlier

of course you're allowed to ask, and i'm allowed to reply explaining why it's a stupid question

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as would anyone who could be bothered hosting a pointbugged ladder when, according to you, everyone except me and whiskey wanted one.

i think if people were asked who the best person to host a pointbugged ladder in ren would be it would be you
maybe that's why they wanted you to do it so badly

if only i had gotten some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for so long, despite being the biggest opponent of the point bug.

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because they're a bunch of idiots? that's the short answer.

Surprised

don't look so surprised. "why are they acting like idiots?" "because they're idiots" quite simple really

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you're almost on to something here. you don't run a clanwars league for these people so you don't know? indeed. so you know what it's like to not host a league for a bunch of idiots... so you ought to understand what might drive someone else to decide not to as well.

fair enough, there are quite a few reasons i can come up with for why more people haven't tried

my reason was "i've put up with you ungrateful twats long enough, you treat me like shit despite all the favours i've done for you and you don't deserve any more of my effort" - this reason seemed to be unacceptable to a lot of people

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why didn't you read my detailed and repeated explanations of why i wouldn't play him at the time?

didn't you cite that the vehicle alignment issue was the main reason? and that the map wasn't complete without it? if there was more to it please fill me in
it just looked to me like you were avoiding it, and i didn't think the vehicle alignment issue would have changed the outcome of the game

wow, why don't you pay attention to what the person you're arguing with is saying?

i pointed out the colossal flaw in simpee's argument again and again and again. neither of you acknowledged it. simpee was trying to prove two things at the same time - firstly that i sucked at the game, secondly that mesa was unfair. and his way to prove this was to play me on mesa. stop and think for a second. how can you prove one player is great and the other player sucks by arranging a match on a horribly unfair map? conversely, how can you prove mesa is unfair by pitting a great player against a terrible player?

there were other reasons i posted at the time, you both ignored them too - such as the fact simpee had already been proven wrong in these pointsfix debates many times already and had shown a pathetic reluctance to avoid admitting it - therefore it wouldn't change a damn thing if he was proven wrong about this too (yet again, the game is rigged).
also, i vaguely remember having internet problems at the time, but never mind that.

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you seem reluctant to finish your sentence. the last words that belong on the end are "but they were wrong"

i didn't think i had to say that, the fact that they couldn't argue it says just that
even though the pointmod makes the game much more fair people still didn't want it used

yes, especially those people who had a track record of profiting from unfairness.

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it might be the same thing you thought you would lose by hosting a pointbugged clan ladder for them?

which is what?

you tell me. i don't want to assume why you didn't do that, do i?

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nobody said they were, though you lied and tried to make it sound like i did.

[color=skyblue]you made a point to say that polls were rigged in clanwars multiple times after you mentioned the poll about wanting the pointmod in clanwars
what i inferred was you were suggesting this one had been rigged as well

no, i was inferring what i actually said, which was "we do not decide policy by polls, we never did, nobody said this poll was important, and anyway the anti-pointsfix crowd has already tried rigging these things in the past"

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what i said several times was that just because others in the past had been rigged that this one wasn't necessarily rigged
if you never said that it had been rigged then what's the big deal?

you're not backing far enough away from your original point, which was "this poll is the only evidence we need to consider"

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i can't tell if that's a serious question or not

just because whiskey was the only person who always stood by your side and listened to you does not mean no one else cared or "gave a shit" about clanwars

firstly, i've argued more divisively with whiskey over stuff than with almost anyone else at clanwars, so that point falls.
secondly, you're totally rephrasing my point again. i didn't say whiskey was the only person who gave a shit about the community because he agreed with me, i said he was one of a very small number of people who actually put any effort into the community, and got nothing but contempt in return

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would that explain the general enthusiasm when i was suspended because a cheater lied his way into my clan?

who said they have to like you?

oh dear.

firstly, a lot of your statements have been along the lines of "you should do what the majority wants". as i've said before, this would mean that one of the worst cheaters in history gets away with it, whereas the fairest and most honest player around is fucked. have fun in a league like that.
secondly, i'm not talking about the fact they didn't like me, i'm talking about the fact they supported me being banned purely because of personal dislike, with not even so much as a thought as to what justification there might be for it.

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despite them disliking you they stuck around, which you've attributed to them being too lazy to make their own league

don't say "stuck around" as if there's anything praiseworthy there... they carried on accepting my charity?

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still, carry on making excuses for these people if you like. the fact remains that none of them came up with the goods, and you attacked the only person who did.

what if no one else was capable? if you're the only one that can honestly do it then what? i can't see anyone else running a clan league for renegade

excuse me, but if you're capable of saying "here's what i think the rule on this matter should be" you're capable of being an admin and making that rule. and if the anti-pointsfix crowd was as enormous as you've decided that it is (though on what evidence i'm not quite sure) then you'd think that they could easily club together to outdo someone who knows as little about coding as i do.

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having a debate thread at all is more generous than they have a reason to expect; i could just say "here's spoony's decision the madder, live with it" and lock the thread, as i was advised by quite a few people to do instead of actually talking to these idiots.

why do that though? that would be no fun for you

are you kidding? it'd be more fun if i DIDN'T put myself through those debates. it's depressing how stupid most of the other participants were, depressing having to repeat myself again and again because they just weren't reading what the person they're arguing with was saying, depressing watching so many people lie through their teeth to try to get what they wanted, etc etc etc

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i've been asked the same question before, but in a more threatening tone.

alright, but that doesn't answer the question
would you be content with your decision even if it emptied out your community?

if something that improved the level of fairness in the league made people who'd already proven their preference for unfairness leave, this would probably have made me realise even sooner what a waste of effort the community was. that's a result, i suppose.

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no? that was the first time you seemed to acknowledge the fact that the anti-pointsfix crowd at clanwars had been caught rigging polls like that before, despite the innumerable times i kept pointing it out to you and you obviously didn't care.

no - i believed you on that, without actually having seen it myself, but you mentioned it numerous times after mentioning that specific poll
it looked to me like you were saying that that poll had been rigged, and that's why several times i've stated that i don't believe that because other polls were rigged in the past that that poll had been rigged
you never actually said it, but again it appeared you were clearly hinting at it

i think i still haven't made myself clear that i couldn't have cared less whether the poll was rigged or not, because i never said it was important. the only thing a rigged poll demonstrates is the dishonesty of the other side of the argument, although that had been obvious for a very long time.

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in the case of the pointmod what was the point? if you made a topic where people were supposed to prove why it's more fair when you already know it's unfair you're just lying a trap out with the intention of slapping people around

see, this is the curse of renegade debates... people are always trying to make things that aren't bad sound bad. the fact i went to great lengths to encourage debate and listened to what everyone said and replied to every post... that's good. the fact i was willing to put the question to the test is a good thing, and it doesn't become a bad thing because the other side of the debate fared so badly.

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was your topic made to ask whether people wanted to use the pointmod or whether people thought it was more fair?

more fair, better for the league, etc. "do you prefer this" seems like a waste of a question to me, though i might ask "why do you prefer it"

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i know you don't, because it logically makes you much more of a douche than i could ever be, and given the sheer number of times you've called me a douche for this reason it would make you the most colossal douche in the world.

pfft
if the reason no one else has tried to make a clan ladder, over the pointmod issue or any other issue, was solely due to people "not giving a shit" then i would have no problem agreeing with you
i'm not so sure that's the case

i'm still not sure why

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from you and from the people you were so enthusiastically defending, it was absolutely true.

that's probably true, and i don't know enough to prove it otherwise
for the record i honestly think it's great that you hosted a league for renegade throughout the years, even if you've never gotten that from me

that's right, it is odd that this didn't appear as a counterpoint to "you're a douche because it's not being done in this particular way"

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what i was trying to get at is that since you felt their opinions were not valid (or as you say WRONG) that they do not matter

when it comes to changing the rules of a league, they don't matter enough. the opinion of someone who's right is worth more than the opinion of someone who's wrong.

let me illustrate it with a hypothetical.

question: should base to base be allowed on islands with a MRLS?
someone says: yes, because nod can buy a MRLS and do the same thing
spoony: uh no, nod can't do that.
someone: stfu you should respect my opinion
spoony: you're factually wrong here
someone: STFU MY OPINION IS WORTH AS MUCH AS YOURS

no, the someone else's vote should not count as much as mine, because i'm right and he's wrong, and this is exactly what happened in the pointsfix debates.

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i don't remember saying i EXPECTED anyone from clanwars to behave maturely?

you didn't say it, i just assumed it's what you meant and addressed it as such
if it's not then don't worry about it
but did you expect it? more or less?

no?

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it was obvious they didn't think i'd have such an easy time proving they were lying.

yet they still put it out there
perhaps it was what they honestly thought and you set the record straight for them - if so then that's good, right?

if that was the case they'd have been grateful for pointing out how crashingly wrong they were, and they'd have been relieved to learn that the guy who they thought was such a corrupt admin was in fact very honest.

this was not their reaction at all, in case you missed it.

that's just talking about their accusations against me (which were, of course, all untrue). now let's look at my counter-accusations against them (which were all true, though they denied them). what is your theory for why they denied them? do you think they might have been equally honest in that case?

Unleash the Renerageâ„¢

Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful

[Updated on: Mon, 01 November 2010 06:27]

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