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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #425510 is a reply to message #425454] Mon, 12 April 2010 08:13 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
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Altzan wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 23:12

Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

do you think you have god to thank for your life, for example?


Well, since I believe that God created life, then yes, I believe I wouldn't be alive without him.

then the "so this part doesn't apply now because he was talking to the israelites" point is nonsense.

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

see re: god has time to turn lot's wife into a pillar of salt (wtf? plenty of god's punishments are creatively vicious, but that one's just weird) just because she looked behind her.


That isn't proof that he had room and initiative to record other acts he condemns.

indeed, he's not perfect and neither is the bible. this could simply be yet another example of the contempt shown towards women, or it could be yet another example of the general incompetence and fallibility of the 'revelations'

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

so after god and the angels save him, don't you think god ought to say hang on lot, i got you out of there because you were the only good man in the city, now i find you throwing defenceless girls at a mob of rapists so the men will survive?


So thinking of doing the act is just as bad as committing it?
If you're so mad at someone you want to murder them, should you be arrested for attempted murder?

the bible says yes, doesn't it?

still, lot didn't just "think" of throwing the girls to the rape mob; he addressed them and specifically made the offer.

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

give me a complete description of hell, please.
i.e. tell me everything you 'know' about it.


We know what the Bible tells us.

so, to summarise:
- hell is worse than losing an eye or a hand
- your soul and body can both be destroyed there
- "all who do evil" end up there
- it's a "fiery furnace" where there willl be weeping and gnashing of teeth
- it's everlasting
- angels can end up there too

does it follow that one particular crime will have the same punishment as a less heinous one? quite possibly, if it's everlasting.

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

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Yes, provided it is a jail term.
The Spiritual jail won't have terms, though...

why?


After Judgement, there's only 2 places to go, Heaven or Hell. Whichever you go to, you stay in.
Thta's how he designed it.

then he's an immoral mean lady with no sense of justice.

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

plus the other example i mentioned (i.e. children can't enter the kingdom of god if their parents were not married. it's hardly the kid's fault, is it?).


I've never heard this one to be honest. Is it a Biblical verse?

yeah... it's something like "bastard children can't enter the presence of the lord for the next ten generations" or something.

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

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Well, what about the rock layers where literally thousands of fossils are all in the same area, as if they had all died at once, or created at once?

Exactly... what about them? If you're trying to vindicate noah's flood, that wouldn't vindicate the rest of genesis... creation is what i was asking about.


Read the bold...

you're suggesting the fossils were created, and that vindicates genesis?

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

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Or,
"When the carbon-14 dating method is "correctly" calibrated, and 25-thousand radiocarbon dates are graphed, the result shows evidence of a great peak of deaths about 4-thousand years ago."

even more vague


I don't see how this is vague.
Although it concerns the flood and not creation.

how does this even prove the flood is true? there was a catastrophic event and lots of animals died? that's happened quite a few times.

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fish were killed in the flood? first time i've heard that from someone who actually believes in it.


I sincerely doubt all fish can survive in every type of water at any depth...

me too, but that only happens if you try to think scientifically. i don't remember god making any particular intention clear to wipe out fish. the result of the flood as far as the fish are concerned seem to depend on how lucky they are... for every other animal - including humans - it's only the ones in the ark who will survive.

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

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No, you would need faith but not more faith.
Still, I'm not the authority on faith and measurement, so I guess faith can be considered measurable.
But that's not how I view it, because then the question remains of how much is enough? What amount of faith just doesn't cut it?

it's a stupid question about an extremely stupid subject, really, isn't it?


Factually, no.
But you're entitled to your own opinion, even if it's about a question you originally asked...

well, i may as well try clarifying what is meant by "faith", since nobody's ever, ever come up with a rational explanation for it or made the case that it's a good thing.

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

you said the danger that you need "saving" from is hell.
two questions.
1: who created hell, and who is responsible for deciding whether we go there?
2: who is telling us about this punishment?


1&2) God
Which is my point.

so it's the same as the mafia protection, then. we're being "saved" by the guy who put us in the danger in the first place.

the second question was simply to remind you that god is not telling us about the punishment. men wrote the bible.

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

Well, I can easily call that ridiculous, but on what basis do you call it ridiculous? in the bible, natural disasters like earthquakes and plagues are always because god's pissed at something. when did god announce he was not going to do that anymore?


New Testament?
When Jesus established his church and ascended to Heaven, God's direct influence ceased and won't return until the second coming.

First time I've heard this from a Christian...

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Spoony wrote on Sat, 10 April 2010 00:29

this just brings me back to my earlier point. there are differing views, and you don't seem entirely clear yourself... so couldn't the "revelation" have been made a bit more clear?


It could if he provided an explicit list of OT rules to remain and OT rules to replace or do away with.
That's about the only way.

or he could make it a bit easier to believe, have given all people alive at the time a reasonable chance of reading it (it took centuries to spread across the world, remember, and by the time that had happened the book had been translated and re-translated, altering many meanings in the process, and the churches themselves had schismed)

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Starbuzzz wrote on Sun, 11 April 2010 01:07

all gods are proved or disproved on the basis of probability. What is the probability of Zeus being true? None right now though it was 100% back in ancient times. The same logic is applied for all the gods today, including the christian god. So the existence of the christian god is highly improbable along with the existence of allah or the mormon god though their followers claim otherwise.


Isn't the probability always 50-50? The diety either exists or doesn't.
The only thing that can sway it is proof toward either, of which there is none.

wow, lol... so if i say unicorns are real, you'd have to accept there is a 50% probability that they actually are?

if you're making no distinction as to the actual likelihood of the claim, i'm not sure on what grounds you say one god is real and all the others aren't.

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