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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #422711 is a reply to message #422709] Thu, 18 March 2010 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
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Altzan wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 17:57

I don't think religious schools work well, or at all - a school implies they are teaching fact, whereas religion is a belief that another may not share. So school and religion don't really mix.
If anything, everyone should have a choice as to whether or not they want to attend.

and should this not apply to parents too? would it not also make sense for parents not to fill the head of a child with religion before they're old enough to think critically about it?

Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53

If I had to learn all that first, I'd be too overwhelmed to make an informed decision.

but you can't make an informed decision without it, can you?

furthermore, is belief really a "decision"? most christian sects say that you will suffer the most horrific punishment imaginable if you believe the wrong thing, or to phrase it differently, if you don't believe the right thing. well, i could make an outward display of christianity. i could pretend i believed all this, i could probably fool anyone who took the time to wonder what my religious beliefs were, but if this god of yours can see and know everything including the contents of our minds, then i wouldn't be fooling god and i wouldn't be avoiding hell. what i can't do is flick a switch and make myself believe any of this, it's not the way the mind works, or at least not the way my mind works.

Quote:

The only time it can be taught 'fair' is if you learn it all for yourself, because it's obvious that if anyone teaches you, they'll present their own biased view along with it.

then see above re: protecting kids from it.

i'm an adult. you preach to me as much as you like, you present your case for believing what you believe and why you think it would be a good idea for me to believe it too, i would never tell you to shut up and i don't want anyone else telling you on my behalf. but i'm old enough to think critically, to hear a thing from someone and recognise that it might not be true, they might be mistaken or they might be plain lying, it might not be exactly as they say it is, it's worth asking why they think it or how they think they know it, etc etc etc, as well as what the implications are.

it's not the same for children. they're taught to take in what their parents and teachers say. without that idea, education falls apart.

Quote:

Also, I have to point out that all that horrible occurrences you mentioned are committed by men. It's unfair to blame it all on the religion when it's the people's fault, who want to pin all of it on their religion and saying they were commanded to do so, when they often weren't.
If I were present at any of the above listed persecution or tyranny, I'd be actively against it as well.

firstly, i did not include events done by people who simply happened to be christian. that would be unfair. only when christianity had a real part in influencing the actions.

if you'd like to hear a justification for any of the examples i mentioned, feel free to challenge any of these and i'll defend them. here are all the ones i cited off the top of my head:

- two thousand years of horrific anti-semitism and anti-gay people
- violently standing in the way of scientific progress
- the crusades
- the inquisition
- willing tool of imperialism and of a huge list of dictators throughout the ages
- enthusiastic ally of fascism in europe
- the enormous death toll it's helped to rack up by assisting the spread of AIDS by absurd rules on condoms, especially in africa

Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53

Quote:

and here's something that you may have been taught: were you at any point told that "faith" is a good thing?


Seeing as how most, if not all, religions are based on faith, then yes.

So what's "faith" (i'm just checking that your definition is the same as mine), and why is it a good thing?

Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53

Blasphemy = sin, then?

i'm sorry, but you speak as someone who is not familiar with your bible. the depiction of god is as a ruthless maniac at the best of times, but the things that really, really piss him off the most are worshipping other gods, having doubts about him, and blaspheming him.

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We don't act against sinners. We believe God will, so I'm guessing that's where the problem lies.

Two questions, then.

1. Why oppose other things that are "sins" being made legal, if you believe God's going to sort it out? That's what you said earlier.
2. Are you OK with the belief that God will act against it? Myself, for example? If your religion is true then I've got a bit of trouble ahead; you've alluded to it yourself. Do you approve of that?

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There are apparently a lot of people in Christianity who want to take God's judgment and wield it themselves against others.

And how exactly can you fault them? My case against them is pretty straightforward - i don't think the god's real, i think that even if the god is real it would not mean that this book is anything to do with him, and i think a lot of the rules are bullshit anyway. I'm curious to hear what your objection to that is if you do believe in god, if you do believe that the bible is a good reflection of what he expects of us.

Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53

I'd be against it just as much as a non-believer who is also against homosexuality would be.

Really? Most non-believers who are against homosexuality generally just don't want to do it themselves. They don't want to restrict the rights of those who are homosexual, and they don't insist on filling the minds of children with homophobia in schools, and those are the real problems.

Quote:

I'm talking in terms of letting our voices be heard. If I don't believe homosexuality is right, I'll stand up and say so, same as those who don't think a religion is right will stand up and say so.

and i absolutely defend your right to say that.

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[Updated on: Thu, 18 March 2010 17:56]

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