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Re: McCain picks his vp. [message #349025 is a reply to message #348923]

Tue, 02 September 2008 13:43

JohnDoe
Messages: 1416
Registered: May 2006

Karma:

General (1 Star)

NukeIt15 wrote on Mon, 01 September 2008 11:58

Extreme views in either direction concerning abortion ignore one of two facts of biology:

1. An early-term embryo has no functional nervous system (though the first activity can be measured fairly early), thus no brain, no consciousness, no feeling.

2. A late-term fetus does have a near-fully-developed nervous system; thus it is capable of feeling and limited thought (possibly consciousness, though we really don't know where that begins), even motor control.

We can safely assume that the line between a human being and a potential human being- if a definite line exists- falls somewhere between those two stages of development. There is a huge, obnoxious gray area there, and both sides of the abortion 'debate' (since it is never a formal debate so much as a passionate argument) tend to expand their position from one end clear across the gray area into the opposite end of the pregnancy. This is absolutely stupid.

Everything we know about biology tells us that an embryo which is only a month old is not a human being yet- that it is not capable of thought, feeling, or anything beyond the basic metabolic processes which sustain even the most elementary bacteria. Likewise, everything we know about an 8-month-old fetus tells us that it is clearly a human being; it is even able to survive and finish developing outside the womb if necessary (with some assistance from modern medicine- I should know; I was born a month early). Hell, a 6 or 7-month-old fetus is well-developed enough to be recognizable as human, to the point where its brain- as it truly is a brain by that time- is able to effect control over muscles.

Arguments to the effect of "we don't know where the line is, so we must err on the side of caution" are utter bullshit- we do know where the line is, we just don't know where it is exactly, and we know damn well that it doesn't lie at conception. Arguments to the effect of "until you are born, you have no rights" are utter bullshit also; we know, and have known since the ECG (that's Electrocardiogram) and the ultrasound became mainstream medicine, that a late-term fetus is as human as a newborn baby.

Arguments from the "it's your responsibility, slacker" perspective are even worse, relying on ad-hominem to make their point. Yes, it's your responsibility... but the argument goes both ways, doesn't it? It is your responsibility not to bring a baby into the world when you know you can't care for it, just as it is your responsibility to make sure that baby is cared for if and when it is born. It is an inherently neutral argument given weight only by the actual or implicit inclusion of "you kill babies because they're inconvenient."

Based on the known facts- not on bullshit, not on the "Word of God," and not on those heart-wrenching pictures of dead embryos- my stated opinion on the subject is that abortion only becomes objectionable late in a pregnancy when the fetus is known to be a thinking, feeling creature. What would I do if I got someone pregnant? I honestly have no idea; I've never been there. I like to think that I'd consult her, then make a decision based on our situation at the time- but who knows, maybe I'd get all sentimental over that little clump of cells and try to hold onto it no matter what. What I do know is that sentimentality makes horrible policy; the difference between "right" and "wrong" on this subject is almost always defined by entirely subjective views- not by biology.

Not to drag this even further off-topic or anything- just trying to inject a little common sense (appalling how uncommon it is) into the thread. By all means, flame away.

You've mentioned the huge grey area...shouldn't we draw the line at the beginning of it as long as we're unsure? Unless the woman's life is threatened (I'd include carrying the child of your rapist because there's a good chance of the woman contemplating suicide), there's no valid reason to allow abortions. I'm an agnostic, not an abortion clinic bomber...the left likes to make this a religious issue, when it's in fact a common sense issue (and liberals have always had problems understanding those).
Government's only real job is to protect the lives of the citizens...ironic how Obama with his lifetime fascination for Marxism and big government fails in that regard.

Palin seems like a decent VP. As long as she's not the president I could care less about her right-wing social views.

Concerning circumcision...I decided to get circumcised at 18 solely for aesthetic reasons and I don't regret my choice in the slightest...denying your child the right to choose against an irreversible aesthetic surgery seems like bad parenting to me.

lol

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[Message index]

		McCain picks his vp. By: Muad Dib15 on Fri, 29 August 2008 16:25
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 29 August 2008 16:53
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 29 August 2008 17:07
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Fri, 29 August 2008 17:45
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GoArmy44 on Fri, 29 August 2008 17:52
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Fri, 29 August 2008 18:14
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Muad Dib15 on Mon, 01 September 2008 10:23
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Mon, 01 September 2008 10:32
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Fri, 29 August 2008 18:24
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Fri, 29 August 2008 20:05
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Rocko on Fri, 29 August 2008 23:19
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Sat, 30 August 2008 06:54
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Rocko on Sat, 30 August 2008 17:50
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Sat, 30 August 2008 18:56
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: DarkDemin on Wed, 03 September 2008 21:24
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Muad Dib15 on Sat, 30 August 2008 04:32
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Sat, 30 August 2008 06:36
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Sat, 30 August 2008 12:05
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Aircraftkiller on Sat, 30 August 2008 18:27
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 30 August 2008 18:51
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Rocko on Sat, 30 August 2008 21:11
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Aircraftkiller on Sat, 30 August 2008 21:53
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Doitle on Sat, 30 August 2008 22:57
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Sat, 30 August 2008 23:06
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Sun, 31 August 2008 01:09
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Muad Dib15 on Sun, 31 August 2008 05:23
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Sun, 31 August 2008 06:51
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: sadukar09 on Sun, 31 August 2008 10:38
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryan3k on Sun, 31 August 2008 13:23
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Sun, 31 August 2008 17:44
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Sun, 31 August 2008 13:53
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Sun, 31 August 2008 17:57
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Spoony on Mon, 01 September 2008 09:53
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Sun, 31 August 2008 18:11
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Sun, 31 August 2008 20:30
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Sun, 31 August 2008 21:08
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Sun, 31 August 2008 21:48
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Homey on Sun, 31 August 2008 22:04
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Sun, 31 August 2008 22:21
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Sun, 31 August 2008 22:33
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: w0dka on Mon, 01 September 2008 07:49
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Mon, 01 September 2008 09:27
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: ids48 on Sun, 31 August 2008 23:38
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Mon, 01 September 2008 05:51
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Mon, 01 September 2008 08:19
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: w0dka on Mon, 01 September 2008 11:48
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: NukeIt15 on Mon, 01 September 2008 09:58
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 02 September 2008 13:43
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Mon, 01 September 2008 12:28
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: NukeIt15 on Mon, 01 September 2008 13:45
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Mon, 01 September 2008 14:21
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Mon, 01 September 2008 14:14
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Crimson on Mon, 01 September 2008 17:10
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Mon, 01 September 2008 18:23
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Tue, 02 September 2008 10:38
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: NukeIt15 on Mon, 01 September 2008 21:18
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 02 September 2008 14:14
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 02 September 2008 14:18
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Tue, 02 September 2008 15:41
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 02 September 2008 16:38
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Tue, 02 September 2008 19:51
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Rocko on Tue, 02 September 2008 16:25
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 02 September 2008 16:38
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Tue, 02 September 2008 16:41
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 02 September 2008 17:13
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Spoony on Mon, 08 September 2008 04:58
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Herr Surth on Mon, 08 September 2008 05:16
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Mon, 08 September 2008 07:39
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Spoony on Mon, 08 September 2008 12:43
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 02 September 2008 17:23
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 02 September 2008 18:20
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Tue, 02 September 2008 18:04
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 02 September 2008 18:20
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 02 September 2008 20:21
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 02 September 2008 20:39
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 02 September 2008 21:50
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 03 September 2008 18:27
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Wed, 03 September 2008 18:48
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Tue, 02 September 2008 19:53
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Tue, 02 September 2008 20:03
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Tue, 02 September 2008 20:00
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Crimson on Tue, 02 September 2008 20:28
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Crimson on Tue, 02 September 2008 22:13
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: NukeIt15 on Wed, 03 September 2008 09:55
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: CarrierII on Wed, 03 September 2008 10:38
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Wed, 03 September 2008 16:12
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Wed, 03 September 2008 18:31
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Wed, 03 September 2008 17:43
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Crimson on Wed, 03 September 2008 18:06
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 03 September 2008 18:17
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Wed, 03 September 2008 18:40
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Wed, 03 September 2008 19:30
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryan3k on Wed, 03 September 2008 20:35
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Thu, 04 September 2008 02:46
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Wed, 03 September 2008 21:21
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryan3k on Wed, 03 September 2008 20:34
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: R315r4z0r on Wed, 03 September 2008 21:30
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Crimson on Thu, 04 September 2008 04:29
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Thu, 04 September 2008 05:17
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Thu, 04 September 2008 04:45
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 04 September 2008 05:30
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Thu, 04 September 2008 06:29
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Thu, 04 September 2008 07:43
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Thu, 04 September 2008 08:48
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Thu, 04 September 2008 09:59
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: liquidv2 on Sun, 07 September 2008 12:13
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Thu, 04 September 2008 07:04
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Thu, 04 September 2008 14:17
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Muad Dib15 on Thu, 04 September 2008 17:54
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Thu, 04 September 2008 17:56
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: u6795 on Thu, 04 September 2008 18:58
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Thu, 04 September 2008 20:46
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Thu, 04 September 2008 23:23
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Fri, 05 September 2008 04:42
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Fri, 05 September 2008 05:12
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Fri, 05 September 2008 05:36
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Thu, 04 September 2008 17:53
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Thu, 04 September 2008 19:28
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Aircraftkiller on Thu, 04 September 2008 20:26
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: u6795 on Fri, 05 September 2008 03:23
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: CarrierII on Fri, 05 September 2008 05:18
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Fri, 05 September 2008 05:43
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: CarrierII on Fri, 05 September 2008 06:22
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryan3k on Fri, 05 September 2008 07:28
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Fri, 05 September 2008 07:30
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Fri, 05 September 2008 07:38
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Fri, 05 September 2008 07:45
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: NukeIt15 on Fri, 05 September 2008 08:10
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GoArmy44 on Fri, 05 September 2008 12:48
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Fri, 05 September 2008 08:16
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: u6795 on Fri, 05 September 2008 11:44
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 05 September 2008 11:53
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: mrpirate on Fri, 05 September 2008 13:49
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Fri, 05 September 2008 15:29
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Fri, 05 September 2008 14:32
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 05 September 2008 15:03
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: mrpirate on Sun, 07 September 2008 00:13
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 07 September 2008 11:09
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: mrpirate on Sun, 07 September 2008 12:42
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Aircraftkiller on Sun, 07 September 2008 12:55
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Sun, 07 September 2008 13:24
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Sun, 07 September 2008 13:25
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Mon, 08 September 2008 16:25
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Spoony on Tue, 09 September 2008 00:46
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Muad Dib15 on Mon, 08 September 2008 19:19
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Mon, 08 September 2008 20:04
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryan3k on Mon, 08 September 2008 20:40
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Mon, 08 September 2008 20:44
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Mon, 08 September 2008 22:53
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 09 September 2008 00:35
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: u6795 on Tue, 09 September 2008 03:37
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 09 September 2008 04:37
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: u6795 on Tue, 09 September 2008 11:59
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 09 September 2008 12:47
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Tue, 09 September 2008 16:16
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Tue, 09 September 2008 06:06
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Aircraftkiller on Tue, 09 September 2008 04:27
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: sadukar09 on Tue, 09 September 2008 04:36
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Tue, 09 September 2008 04:43
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: sadukar09 on Tue, 09 September 2008 04:45
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: mrpirate on Tue, 09 September 2008 09:49
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Tue, 09 September 2008 13:41
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Tue, 09 September 2008 13:48
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Tue, 09 September 2008 16:53
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Tue, 09 September 2008 18:59
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: u6795 on Tue, 09 September 2008 13:49
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Wed, 10 September 2008 04:34
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Wed, 10 September 2008 04:56
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Wed, 10 September 2008 06:32
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Wed, 10 September 2008 06:46
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Wed, 10 September 2008 08:57
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: GEORGE ZIMMER on Wed, 10 September 2008 10:12
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Aircraftkiller on Tue, 09 September 2008 14:19
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryu on Wed, 10 September 2008 06:43
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: cheesesoda on Wed, 10 September 2008 08:15
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: u6795 on Wed, 10 September 2008 12:01
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: JohnDoe on Wed, 10 September 2008 12:40
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Wed, 10 September 2008 12:45
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Wed, 10 September 2008 13:36
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Muad Dib15 on Wed, 10 September 2008 16:59
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: nikki6ixx on Thu, 11 September 2008 18:16
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryan3k on Fri, 12 September 2008 21:09
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Fri, 12 September 2008 22:01
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Crimson on Fri, 12 September 2008 13:02
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Ryan3k on Mon, 29 September 2008 13:07
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: CarrierII on Mon, 29 September 2008 13:23
		Re: McCain picks his vp. By: Starbuzzz on Mon, 29 September 2008 13:52

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