Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » eggmac the pacifist
| eggmac the pacifist [message #7414] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 11:31  |
joroe34
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Registered: March 2003
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Using your logic... the overthrow of Hitler was an unjust war?
Further, go to your local video shop, rent "In Memorandum." This video shows on 9-11, Americans jumping to their deaths out of burning buildings. An attack that claimed over 3000 innocents. Our Country was attacked, anything we do to prevent attacks on our homeland from happening again, I feel is justifiable. People of Saddam's ilk cannot be reasoned with. He and the terrorist he supports would not hesitate to kill Americans - why should we live under that threat?
Remember... you are either with us or against us ... what side are you on?
We have two ears but only one mouth. So that we can listen more and talk less.
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7417] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 11:51  |
eggmac
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2003
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Yes that's true. I am a pacificist, because war is the greatest crime against humanity in human history EVER.
See, what happened on 09.11 was extremely horrible! But if America attacks Iraq, it brings that exact horror to the Iraqi people! Thousands of people will die, due to the fact that the USA wants to get rid of Saddam Hussein. However evil he is and how many crimes he has convicted, there is no legitimation for a war, which is worse than anything else for the civil population.
Furthermore, if you consider the time after the war, which will hopefully be over VERY quick, this war will result in a lot of hatred against the USA and other western countries and thus leading to even more terrorist attacks. You can't stop terrorism by war, it is just impossible!
How come I get the honour of a whole thread dedicated only to me?
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7420] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 11:55 |
joroe34
Messages: 65
Registered: March 2003
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Eggmac, if you can... answer this was World War 2 a "justified" war?
We have two ears but only one mouth. So that we can listen more and talk less.
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7421] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 12:00 |
eggmac
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2003
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| joroe34 |
Eggmac, if you can... answer this was World War 2 a "justified" war?
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It was one of the MOST horrible things happened in human history. It was started by Hitler himself, not any other country that wished to remove him. So that war was very unjustified. But the invasion of Germany was very justified, because Germnay was the agressor.
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7423] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 12:05 |
joroe34
Messages: 65
Registered: March 2003
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Further Eggmac, your opinons do matter, however pacifist never have a solution to the problem. You have many opinions but no solutions! Pacifist believe that if you leave them alone - they wont hurt you. I feel 9-11 dispelled that, what did those people who went to work that day do to deserve what they received? They were attacked for no reason.
What would you pose for Americans to do with people who have professed a desire to spill our childrens blood in our streets. Do you seriously feel that these people can be reasoned with?
Come on...join reality! People that are bent on the destruction of America who have the means to obtain and use weapons of mass destruction must be sought out and destroyed! I don't want a war but I also don't want to see my, yours, or any other children dying at the hands of people who have no shred of decency.
We have two ears but only one mouth. So that we can listen more and talk less.
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7428] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 12:25 |
joroe34
Messages: 65
Registered: March 2003
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| Quote: |
It was one of the MOST horrible things happened in human history. It was started by Hitler himself, not any other country that wished to remove him. So that war was very unjustified. But the invasion of Germany was very justified, because Germnay was the agressor.
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You skirted around the question.
Did the US and Britian and other allies have justification to respond to the threat that the German and other Axis powers posed to the world?
And I would like to point out that Japan killed many Americans the day Pearl Harbor was bombed - did we not have justification to protect our interest at that point in history?
We could go back and forth on this issue. So I will sum it up this way...
I feel your way of thinking actually does not promote peace, it works toward destroying peace. History has shown that there is always bad people wanting to do bad things. If left unchecked, bad people will destroy all that is good. I think we can agree that Saddam is a very bad person. I, in my heart, feel that if he is not controlled he will have a hand in hurting innocent lives. You see eggmac, your opinion makes you feel good. I understand your opinion. Everyone should strive for peaceful solutions to problems.
However, in the real world, those opinons can get you hurt or killed. Especially in Today's world where one gram of anthrax can kill millions of people. And what is really scary for me, is that there is a person out there, hell there are thousands of people out there just waiting to be the one to deliver that destruction to my home land. Do you really believe that if we just leave these people alone, they wont attempt to destroy us? Again please join the real world. There hatred for us should not be underestimated, they will kill us at any given chance!
I am not a pacifist for this reason. I will protect my homeland from any threat. I have made that oath as part of the military and I make that oath today as a member of society who enjoys and appreciates what my country gives me. And I want my children to be able to enjoy the same type of life I enjoyed!
We have two ears but only one mouth. So that we can listen more and talk less.
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7438] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 12:56 |
eggmac
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2003
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I see what you mean joroe. And yes, I agree with you and with K9 that the response to the Nazi-German agression is more than justified.
But today we do not have a response to an agression, but an agression itself. You rightly say that dictatorships like Hussein's must be controlled and contained. This is the duty of the international community in order to prevent ethnic cleansing, aggression etc. But I do not beleive that Iraq is a real thread to the Unated States or any other country. There is no evidence for that, furthermore there is no evidence that Iraq had anything to fo with the attacks of Sept. 11th. And even if there was, an attack on such a country is irresponsible because the first victims of that war will not be the 'bad' guys but the inncoent civilians. Such conflicts must be solve by any other means but not by war, because a 'Military humanism' is not possible, it is a contradiction in itself.
It is often said that pacifist are irrational and far away from reality. But I cannot agree on that (how could I), especially at the moment. The USA is the most powerful country in the world, it has the possibility of acting however they like. So it is in their responsibility to start a war or to solve a problem with other means such as diplomacy, sanctions, containment (the case of the Soviet Union proves that containment policy and human rights activities DO change the world) etc.
Pacifist before the First World War were laughed at and during the war even imprisoned. Later they were proved right. Same was in Nazi-Germany before the Second World War.
Hitler justified his war by saying that Poland supresses German citizens and that jews are the evil tyrans of the world being responsible for horrible crimes. Everyone tries to justify his actions by difarmating (sp? sorry) his opponent. But one has to ask oneslef whether there is much truth in it or not.
K9, I did say the truth. I do not have any desire to lie to you in any way. Why should I? There is nothing very special about my backgrounds.
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7454] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 14:07 |
eggmac
Messages: 51
Registered: February 2003
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| Aircraftkiller |
Here's the logic:
A person who hates your country, and by extension hates yourself, has an automatic rifle. He's standing in front of you, aiming at your face.
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In your analogy, Mr. Bush would be the man with the rifle aiming at other countries. Now tell me, how can this be correct?
Your arguments are based on the assmution that you defend yourself. But the USA does not defend itslef, it offends another country.
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7467] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 15:43 |
joroe34
Messages: 65
Registered: March 2003
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| Quote: |
I do not feel america was justified by using the atomic weapons as they did. They dropped them on civilian targets. I mean it would have been just as effective by dropping it on military bases. Because you see the Japanese attacked military targets. To my knowledge hardly any civilians were harmed
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Spoken like a true pacifist.
Let 's play this game.... Do you think, given the opportunity... Japan would have used a nuke on the usa during ww2? Given the chance, do you think Hitler would have used a nuke on the USA in WW2.
Now... Do you think, given the chance, Saddam would release chemical weapons in the USA? Do you think Osama bin Laden would explode a "dirty" bomb in the USA.
It is my opinon that history always repeats itself. However, the consequences for our society is far more greather than say 50 years ago. Again, I go back to my original statement that a gram of anthrax can kill a million people. Pacifist say prove that Saddam is a threat to the USA. It is my opinon he presents a large threat to our safety because we cannot account for the destruction of the stockpiles of chemical agents he possesed/possess. If you think that Saddam, if left in power, would not sell materials of mass destruction to known terrorist, you are only kidding yourself.
I feel America is justified in protecting it's citizenry and intrest. It would be nice to feel the way pacifist feel. However, in the real world, not all people are good nor do all people have good intentions. Some people want to kill my children while I watch. And when they are done spilling my child's blood in the streets they will rape and kill my wife. And when they are done with my wife, they will kill me by putting a bullet in my head. You see pacifist, this is their mentality, it is one that cannot be reasoned with and must be eliminated. If countries tolerate or encourage these types of bad people - they deserve what they get.
And commando you are wrong. The japaneese killed an american in Idaho by a floating a bomb attached to a hot air balloon that landed in a field. A unsuspecting person picked up the bomb and it blew up in her face.
Again, if allowed, people will attack this country. It is amazing pacifist choose to ignore this fact and hope it goes away. What if it is your child who is left to die in the streets? What then???
We have two ears but only one mouth. So that we can listen more and talk less.
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7471] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 15:53 |
Ren Sizzlefab
Messages: 77
Registered: March 2003
Location: Australia
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| Aircraftkiller |
Don't even start with this bullshit. Many more people would have died if we had invaded them and fought in the streets of their cities, house to house, building to building.
You can't argue with that. You know how the Japanese are when it comes to war, if you've studied history at all concerning Asia.
Atomic bombs were the best way to end the war, intimidate the Soviet Union, and assure the deterrent factor of the nuclear weapon age.
I don't care how brave he is. He's still wrong.
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Yes many people would have died in conventional fighting, and a demonstration of the power of an atomic bomb was necessary to end the war, but the use of it on civilians was barbaric. You can't tell me that if a huge chunk of uninhabited landscape was wiped out by a bomb, and a threat was made to use it on an actual target, that it wouldn't have a similar deterring effect?
And as people have said before, just because their opinion differs from yours, it doesn't mean they're wrong.
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7493] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 17:09 |
Ren Sizzlefab
Messages: 77
Registered: March 2003
Location: Australia
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| Aircraftkiller |
Yes, it does - they're wrong to me.
Ever think of that? I suppose not.
Now, if you'd think about it... Who's going to really understand the destructive power of something unless it is released in an environment where it can prove its worth?
That's the point, that's why we dropped them on their civilian cities.
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Yes I did think of that, saying "You're wrong" and "I think you're wrong" are two different things. If I say 1+1=732, then I'm wrong. If I say "God doesn't exist" you may think I'm wrong, but you can't conclusively say I'm wrong.
And you can see the destructive power of something without witnessing its ultimate intended use. So by your example, if I see an automatic rifle tear up a cardboard target or practice dummy, I think "Well that's not a real person, so it couldn't possibly hurt me." :rolleyes:
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| eggmac the pacifist [message #7500] |
Tue, 18 March 2003 17:45 |
Ren Sizzlefab
Messages: 77
Registered: March 2003
Location: Australia
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| Aircraftkiller |
You're not seeing its full potential, which is obviously what I was referring to...
*woosh*
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You are seeing its full potential, not its full effect. Which is why America dropped it on a civilian target. They weren't sure of the exact effects, so they organised two "field tests" in Japan.
Again, you don't need to see the actual event to understand the full implications.
[Updated on: Tue, 18 March 2003 18:35] Report message to a moderator |
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I mean the Japanese make flimsy wooden building but the US had real well built cities! I mean How about seeing what it could do on concrete!
