Home » Archived Forums » RenGuard Client » To those who DEMAND proof on a program
| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53028] |
Tue, 28 October 2003 12:50  |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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As the topic says, there have been a few people who DEMAND source code or a beta of a security program. To those of you I give this challange:
Go to any government and ask for schematics, etc. on secret military weapons as proof of their development, or ask for schematics, etc. On those already developed and in use, but who's specs. are still considered secret as you want proof that they do what they are reported to do.
To much on the extreme side? Then this is my second challange.
Go to a game company, or security system development company and ask them for their source code as proof of games in development, security software in development or those already produced but not yet released. After all, thats the only proof you want.
Oh, but wait... you want a public beta. In this case, go to a security company and DEMAND access to their closed betas.
If you can accomplish any of these, then I will drop my arguement against your moronic nature of the demands you put forward.
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53170] |
Wed, 29 October 2003 12:15  |
fl00d3d
Messages: 1107
Registered: August 2003
Location: Iowa, USA
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star)
Viva la Resistance! |
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(1) Or if you're not a top secret military project manager, or you're not a company ... you can release the information.
(2) Harness the power of Open Source projects, my friend. Things like linux are around because geeks got sick of being jerked around by a monopoly.
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53479] |
Sat, 01 November 2003 00:13 |
AnarchisT -BiO-
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2003
Location: Australia
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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Your examples are completly unrealated to the level of a game. The army will not release schematics of weapons/projects etc for global security. This is a game, and i suppose showing someone some proof is going to jepardize the human race?
A gaming company on the other hand doesn't want it's ideas to be stolen by another company for an obvious reason, it would lose sale money! If the game was stolen and the scource code enhanced in some way, shape or form but this is a free project in which case the one to first release the program gets the credit as well as who ever does the coding etc.
You example have absolutly no relevance in the argument so you, my friend, have just crashed n' burned.
Now with the new -BiO- tag. Twice the fun for the whole family!
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53481] |
Sat, 01 November 2003 00:25 |
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Cpo64
Messages: 1246
Registered: February 2003
Location: Powell River, B.C. Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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No, you are wrong it apply, because if the sorce code gets out it would jepardize the secerty of the project, alowing some people to circumvent there work...
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53708] |
Mon, 03 November 2003 09:38 |
fl00d3d
Messages: 1107
Registered: August 2003
Location: Iowa, USA
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star)
Viva la Resistance! |
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No matter how you look at it, RenGuard is not a proprietary project and is NOT special. Anyone could make that program.
So the fact that you try and stamp "Secret" all over it and protect it like its the password to a missile system is simply retarded.
In response to Warranto in post 3:
1) AHHH Ha ha ha. If you're worried about NDAs you're overkilling a simple anticheat. This is not the military and this is not an official product of Westwood Studios. I fail to see why you think this is so special.
2) "Open sources are an exception to the rule. Why? Becuase they are open sources." lol, thanks for pointing that out. And don't use Microsoft to defend your point. Anyone knowledgable will SLAM you. Microsoft develops crappy programs with horribly misconfigured security and APIs and buffer overflows up the ass. Open source projects such as linux are shared among a community of professionals (not wannabes who are scared their source will be their downfall). Linux is WAAAAAY more powerful and secure than Microsoft's Windows ever will.
What do you have to protect by signing NDAs and hiding the source code from the public? They're just going to reverse engineer it anyway. You're basically telling the Renegade Community that they're not good enough to do what you're doing. Aren't you? If you had more faith in the Renegade Community (or even outside the community) to develop an anticheat you'd work as a team to produce source code that was unstopable.
What does Microsoft have to rely on when they find a bug or security vulnerability in their software? Some random hacker out there that makes it known through a 0-day sploit? Maybe a security firm that just happened to discover it? Or perhaps their own people? How about the linux kernels?
The world works together to create the open source product. When a vulnerability is found by the PUBLIC the PUBLIC works TOGETHER to produce a more secure product.
You're giving too much credit to the people that made the cheats. You need to get off the pedestal you've made for yourselves and humble yourselves enough to work with us common folk.
Personally, I'd attempt to reverse engineer (or clone) anything you produce if you don't release it open source. I would then take what I found and release that source code. Why? Because I don't want to use some propriatize piece of junk.
You honestly don't know what Open Source is all about, do you? And just to prove my point as I end this thread, I've already found a way with linux to stop the cheats. Took me about 20 minutes. Now I need to figure out how to do that same sort of thing on a windows platform. When I figure it out I'll release it on my website and post it here.
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53713] |
Mon, 03 November 2003 10:33 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Wow, I never knew it was possible. You ARE a moron. Thank you for completely missing the point! With someone of your obvious superior knowledge ( :rolleyes: ) I can't believe you still couldn't put 2 and 2 together, even after what Taximes posted.
I made the comparisons that I did because it related to this subject. RELATED, not EXACT.
You and a few others are DEMANDING the source code, for whatever reason. All I'm doing is stating that -just like the military and Microsoft, and any other serurity program other than open source codes- you WON'T get it. Why? Because they choose not to. As they have stated, they don't want to give people extra time to find a way to circumvent the program.
As you stated, they are probably going to reverse engineer it. So why give them the code? All it does it make it easier for them. Not to mention, releasing the code , or a beta will only allow them to attempt to circumvent the program before it's supposed to be released. That wil only cause the RenGuard program to be delayed even more as they attempt to fix the problem.
As I stated, I am NOT on any sort of pedistal, nor have I made any attempt to put myself on one. Please show me where I have done so.
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53814] |
Tue, 04 November 2003 05:57 |
fl00d3d
Messages: 1107
Registered: August 2003
Location: Iowa, USA
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star)
Viva la Resistance! |
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I didn't miss any point. I made my point very clear.
You represent everything about the internet that I hate. The "machine". Guess what? There are plenty of us out here prepared the "rage against" it and voice our opinions.
Just out of curiosity, what's your programming background? Any?
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53828] |
Tue, 04 November 2003 10:01 |
fl00d3d
Messages: 1107
Registered: August 2003
Location: Iowa, USA
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star)
Viva la Resistance! |
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WARRANTO:
"Programming ability? None. I'm a philosopher, not a computer programmer. In fact I've never even attempted to program. But as majikent pointed out I fail to see how that would apply to my knowledge of what is regarded as truth. No matter if you agree with what the truth is or not. Don't like it, don't complain to me about stating it. Go and change it. When it's been changed, I'll start stating that as the truth. "
A philosopher? Isn't everyone a philosopher? Or is that just my philosophy? lol The point that I'm making is that you don't have any clue what open source is truely about or any technical information in your brain that would allow you to make an informed decision regarding the technical background and planning for this project.
"And since when was the "machine" represented by the truth? All you stated was that my referance to Microsoft, the military, and any other non-open source company was a poor one in relation to the RenGuard program.
I don't know if you realized it, but your wording screwed up your whole point.
"That right there proved you missed my point.
Let me explain it again in terms you can probably (I hope) understand.
Military Program,etc. = secret and not willing to be given out to just anybody.
OK ... agreed. Has nothing to do with a utility for a game that is not supported by its developers anymore. Continue.
"Closed source coding (the Microsoft referance) = secret and not willing to be given out to just anybody.
Proprietary information is what you're looking for. OK, a sense of confidentiality is understood. Continue.
"RenGuard = secret and not willing to be given out to just anybody.
Whoopsie! There's where you messed up. It should look like this:
RenGuard = secret and not willing to be given out because the people who created it would rather play with the fate of the community, rather than ask them for their unity and help.
"See the referance applicablility now? I hope I don't have to spell out why the RenGuard team is unwilling to provide the code (Hint: refer to the referances I supplied)
No, I really do not.
_____________________
K9:
"So why is it when you wanted to "Head up" an anti-cheat program you wanted it to be "classified" and yet the Renguard team needs to release its source code for you?"
I planned to gather volunteers and accept anyone who was interested. If that was everyone, so be it. Then keep their work secure until it was developed. I would then have the source released -AND- encourage modifications or improvements.
"Renguard is NOT public property. It is the private property of its developers. So there is no "Open Records" regulations that need to follow.
True, my friend. RenGuard is not public property. I would have to agree with that. However, RenGuard is also NOT the only solution, nor do you hold exclusive rights to the official anticheat program. Nothing makes YOU (points at the RenGuard team) any more special than anyone else (points at the renegade community who is 'in theory' watching this conversation).
You guys continue to miss my point. I came in here originally upset that you, as leaders of the community, would fight hand and foot to keep your programs super secret and discourage competition. Something wasn't right. Then, months later, nothing was released. Even more suspicous.
How are you going to demand respect and patience from the Renegade Community? One person makes program A, another makes program B, another runs an official forum (c). A+B+C != the only solution or give you the right to dictate the community.
Last I checked I paid for my copy of the game and have just as much of a RIGHT to produce modifications, skins, anticheats, etc AND DEMAND an anticheat be produced (as I am legally pursuing through EA) as anyone else.
This is a headache.
Just produce your anticheat and prove I'm wrong to say it will never come out. Then I'll acknowledge it like a big boy and this will be over.
Or don't produce it and my word will stand. Either way, I'm done wasting my breath.
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53832] |
Tue, 04 November 2003 11:18 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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Wrong. You originally came in here trying to put together a team to produce an anti-cheat app, in the very forums of a project that was already in progress. We were simply trying to get that through to you. We weren't going to take mac's perfectly good leadership skills and give them to you, someone we don't know. It's very simple.
I like how you dodged the point that you stressed you wouldn't be giving out source code for your project-to-be. I guess any program is OK as long as you have the source, eh?
I bet if I grep my Apache logs for your hits I'll find you're using Internet Explorer, but that's just a guess.
I'm the bawss.
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53860] |
Tue, 04 November 2003 14:44 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| fl00d3d |
WARRANTO:
"Programming ability? None. I'm a philosopher, not a computer programmer. In fact I've never even attempted to program. But as majikent pointed out I fail to see how that would apply to my knowledge of what is regarded as truth. No matter if you agree with what the truth is or not. Don't like it, don't complain to me about stating it. Go and change it. When it's been changed, I'll start stating that as the truth. "
A philosopher? Isn't everyone a philosopher? Or is that just my philosophy? lol The point that I'm making is that you don't have any clue what open source is truely about or any technical information in your brain that would allow you to make an informed decision regarding the technical background and planning for this project.
"And since when was the "machine" represented by the truth? All you stated was that my referance to Microsoft, the military, and any other non-open source company was a poor one in relation to the RenGuard program.
I don't know if you realized it, but your wording screwed up your whole point.
"That right there proved you missed my point.
Let me explain it again in terms you can probably (I hope) understand.
Military Program,etc. = secret and not willing to be given out to just anybody.
OK ... agreed. Has nothing to do with a utility for a game that is not supported by its developers anymore. Continue.
"Closed source coding (the Microsoft referance) = secret and not willing to be given out to just anybody.
Proprietary information is what you're looking for. OK, a sense of confidentiality is understood. Continue.
"RenGuard = secret and not willing to be given out to just anybody.
Whoopsie! There's where you messed up. It should look like this:
RenGuard = secret and not willing to be given out because the people who created it would rather play with the fate of the community, rather than ask them for their unity and help.
"See the referance applicablility now? I hope I don't have to spell out why the RenGuard team is unwilling to provide the code (Hint: refer to the referances I supplied)
No, I really do not.
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So your a philosopher huh? Then please tell me your thoughts on Descartes meditaions of first philosophy. I'd also be interested to see what you think of Locke's presentation of personal identity, Hume's idea of cause and effect and how it deals with the 7 different philisophical ideas relating to said cause and effect. And let's not forget about Niezche and his feeling of morality (Just to name a few, though I guess I could also ask about Freud).
You don't need to know anything about programming to understand that ope source programming is an attempt to circumvent (not a bad thing) the mega businesses by allowing the "common folk" to produce similar if not better products by being able to view the programs coding.
Nope, mt wording didn't screw up my point. It states it right there in white, and well, black or green. Try taking another crack at it again. All I had been stated in my previous posts was the truth of the situation. You in turn made it out to be I was working, or part of "the machine". So I ask you again, since when is speaking the truth being part of "the machine".
RenGuard is playing with the fate of the community by not allowing the source code out? Odd. If thats the case, the military is playing with the security of a nation by not letting their secrets out and by not allowing the public to help, and being united under it. You could also say that about microsoft as well. But then again, this will go right over your head, and you'll miss the point completely.
Finally I'm not surprized that you don't get my statement about the teams reluctancy to release the code. Oh well, I've tried explaining it to you a number of times, and I highly doubt your limited ability to comprehend will understand yet another explination.
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #53896] |
Tue, 04 November 2003 19:20 |
Jelly
Messages: 67
Registered: October 2003
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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Alright Now I'm going to put this whole thing together and maybe even just close this thread (doubt it but worth a try).
Flooded brings up valid points in his posts, While so do others but you all put hatred towards eachother in these posts which makes them sound very stupid.
Flooded wants proof etc. Understandable. Who doesn't? Though almost all of us trust the renguard team there is no physicle proof to the public. Which is again understandable. (I will get into that next)
You others go on about the Source yes ok you can not give it out. Again Understandable.
But my question is why is this simple topic of Proof vs Security going into such other stupid areas. Microsoft, Linux, Philosophy!? Give it a break guys stick to the main topic here.
Flooded and so do others want some proof of a program. Understandable.
While others feel that it is better to keep the source secret. Understandable
Let's not drift friends keep on topic.
Personally I believe you have all made your points and should probably just drop it and try and be civilized to eachother and respect eachother's opinions though you may not agree with them you MUST live and accept these opinions. If you are going to flip out on small matters like this how do you plan to stay alive in the real world?
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| To those who DEMAND proof on a program [message #54103] |
Thu, 06 November 2003 11:04 |
fl00d3d
Messages: 1107
Registered: August 2003
Location: Iowa, USA
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star)
Viva la Resistance! |
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This is for you mrpirate!
Jelly is right. Thanks man. As I've stated in other threads, I've retreated to my own program and ways of dealing with cheaters. I still stand behind my demands for proof, however. The choice is theirs, however.
Crimson, you're right. I stand corrected. I did come here trying to coordinate an anticheat. However, at the time you had just got off the ground (new forums and no website) and I was simply trying to expand the scope of the team.
I just think people that have a technical background (CCNA, programming experience, etc .... computer scientists) are the only ones that can successfully evaluate the status and quality of a project such as this. There are a lot of kids in here that barely know how to use a mouse to aim ... and there are some adults in here that have other jobs than sitting on computers all day. Quite fair. But that doens't mean they have the insight I feel they should have to critique like I have. That is all I was trying to say.
Back to mrpriate, dude I'm not going to get into why I do or do not think they're making an anticheat. I just want one made. And I'm not going to "fuck off" ... I'm going to stick around as long as it takes to see this game survive. As full time administrators and moderators for this forum, they should have decided before they started the project if they'd be able to handle both responsibilities (which I think they have). If they're as far along in this project as they claim and have still been posting regularly I'd say they're doing a damn good job. My point is that I'm not affecting their progress ... and if I am they need to re-evaluate their team's dedication to the mission.
Peace out.
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