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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51599] |
Thu, 16 October 2003 10:28   |
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Crimson
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General (5 Stars)
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| Taximes |
5. Before Neo meets Merovingian, we see someone being escorted away and he looks at Neo...I can't tell who he is, but it has to be someone of some importance.
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My brother noticed that too... we paused it but couldn't figure out who it is. I'm sure we'll find out in the next one.
I'm the bawss.
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51691] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 08:15 |
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Krazyfoxx
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Has anyone found any easter eggs on the DVD yet? I rented it last night and I'm usually pretty good at finding them but I haven't yet. I think I'll go watch it again before I have to take it back 
Semper Fi
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51722] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 12:22 |
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boma57
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Colonel |
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One thing that bothered me during the Architect scene was the other Neos on the monitors. It just doesn't fit...
They spoke as if to exemplify the architect's description of the previous anomolies, but...
1. There was way more than the 5 previous "Ones" who were supposed to have existed.
2. They wouldn't all look the same...Sure, I suppose the machines could edit the genetics, but what's the point of that? Plus, if they could identify the anomoly to edit his genetics, there would have been no need for all the elaborate systems. They could've just killed him
So it could've just been symbolic, or the Wachowski's are doing something really cheesy if they make all the anomolies look the same.
[Updated on: Fri, 17 October 2003 12:45] Report message to a moderator |
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51725] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 12:34 |
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Gizbotvas
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Interesting conversation.
I agree with Crimmy.
At the end of the second movie, Neo emits an EMP from his hand killing the Sentinels, but that couldnt be real. It implies that at that level, the level in which the first two movies professed to be "real life" were just another matrix in the Matrix, and that Nobody has seen "real life" yet.
It is also implied in the fact that Mr. Smith can overwrite a human brain. Hmmm, that's some real sketchy Sci-Fi, unless it is just another matrix, where Smith isn't cooping anyone in "real life".
I think we have yet to see how far down the rabbit hole really goes...
"Everyone relax...Gizbotvas is here"
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51739] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 14:10 |
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Walrus
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Commander |
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I was wondering if they had seen the real world or not. After all 'this is the world pulled over your eyes.'
I was also wondering about the architect, did he tell the truth, he had no reason too.
If there were previous Zion’s then the time line can not fit completely. The reason for Zion existing does not make sense, its a bit lame and paper thin, that is unless there is progenitor story line (the matrix must sustain its self) that was also suggested by the long drab architect monologue, (its been done though and is a bit obvious) and that Zion is more of a farm for breeding stock then any form of resistance. Simply there to be a control group to contain disorder were is can be broken down or studied - put it this way, why would you create and allow something that might come and give you a good ol kick in the balls latter on? What could balance the risk, was it all to route out 'the one?'
This is also suggested by smith in the first movie; just listen carefully to his speech to morphious. It suggests that the time line is not all it seems. That and smith has become the virus he talked about. Either that or the writer’s didn’t think too hard about it. To be honest with you I think its a case of 'too many cooks spoil the soup.' They never thought the story would get much further, that’s why the second one was badly peased together. I would have thought they could do a better job then 'reloaded'. As for the animatrix - the second renisonce 1 and 2 did an okey job at explaining what happened. The rest were pretty dire even for anime.
One Last Time
"England expects that every man will do his duty"
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| Re: errr [message #51753] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 15:33 |
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spreegem
Messages: 1755
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General (1 Star) |
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| Tr0janM4n |
From what I understand, the lady that played the Oracle in the first 2 movies passed away during the making of the second one and therefore will not appear in the 3rd one, obviously. I dont think we'll see any Oracle in the 3rd installment, maybe one of her buddies,
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My friend knows a shit load about the third Matrix, and has seen trailers that haven't even been released yet! Because the actress who played the Oracle died, the Oracle had to "change her shell" so that means that a different acteress will be playing the oracle, so she will be in the third, but in a different "shell"
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[Updated on: Fri, 17 October 2003 15:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: errr [message #51754] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 15:47 |
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Blazer
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| spreegem |
My friend knows a shit load about the third Matrix, and has seen trailers that haven't even been released yet! Well anyway he says that the Oracle had to "change her shell" so she will be in the third, but in a different "shell"
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There are no "unseen trailers".
The oracle is different in Revolutions because the actress who played the Oracle died, and they had to tweak the storyline to accomodate that.
[Updated on: Fri, 17 October 2003 15:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51755] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 15:47 |
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sloppyjo
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The origionalwoman that played the oracle died of diabeties.
They are Dodging Us why,We are dodging them
-LT-4 Time Winner of the westwood Cup and 3 Time Winner of the Clanwars Cup.
-LT-You Clan Just Dosent Compare So Just GO Home. I Talk The Smack. Stfu.
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| Re: errr [message #51760] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 15:54 |
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spreegem
Messages: 1755
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General (1 Star) |
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| Blazer |
| spreegem |
My friend knows a shit load about the third Matrix, and has seen trailers that haven't even been released yet! Well anyway he says that the Oracle had to "change her shell" so she will be in the third, but in a different "shell"
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There are no "unseen trailers".
The oracle is different in Revolutions because the actress who played the Oracle died, and they had to tweak the storyline to accomodate that.
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That's why I said about the "changing of the shell" did I also have to include that the changing of the shell thing happened because of the actress dying you people kept talking about, so I thought you would understand about why I talked about the changing of the shell thing. Then how did he see the trailers? He could be making it, but I believe him, he has never lied before, but anyway he says some people hacked into the matrix site or somthing and found them, I don't know, sounds like it could be made up, and the sites he've sent to me that supposably have the trailers on them don't he says that they had to remove them, or they would get sued, now that I think about it, it sounds completely made up.
My Photoshop, PHP, and other crap Tutorial Site
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| Re: errr [message #51762] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 15:56 |
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spreegem
Messages: 1755
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General (1 Star) |
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| spreegem |
| Tr0janM4n |
From what I understand, the lady that played the Oracle in the first 2 movies passed away during the making of the second one and therefore will not appear in the 3rd one, obviously. I dont think we'll see any Oracle in the 3rd installment, maybe one of her buddies,
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My friend knows a shit load about the third Matrix, and has seen trailers that haven't even been released yet! Because the actress who played the Oracle died, the Oracle had to "change her shell" so that means that a different acteress will be playing the oracle, so she will be in the third, but in a different "shell"
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DAMN I acidenlt clicked the quote button :oops: :oops: ohh well, anyways, when is it coming out in theaters? There, I edited my post about the whole changing of the shell thing, it might make a little more sense now.
My Photoshop, PHP, and other crap Tutorial Site
[Updated on: Fri, 17 October 2003 15:59] Report message to a moderator |
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51780] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 17:33 |
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Crimson
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General (5 Stars)
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I haven't seen all the previews, but I've certainly seen one with the "new" Oracle in it. I figured it was common knowledge that she was going to be played by a different actress in this one and that the storyline would mention her change in appearance.
I'm the bawss.
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51784] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 17:49 |
snipefrag
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| Taximes |
One thing that bothered me during the Architect scene was the other Neos on the monitors. It just doesn't fit...
They spoke as if to exemplify the architect's description of the previous anomolies, but...
1. There was way more than the 5 previous "Ones" who were supposed to have existed.
2. They wouldn't all look the same...Sure, I suppose the machines could edit the genetics, but what's the point of that? Plus, if they could identify the anomoly to edit his genetics, there would have been no need for all the elaborate systems. They could've just killed him
So it could've just been symbolic, or the Wachowski's are doing something really cheesy if they make all the anomolies look the same.
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You missed the point, there needed to be an annomaly because humans rejected the perfect world, the annomaly was created also as a mesure of time. Damn its to late to be talking about the matrix in depth... im going to bed 
Snipefrag - Br20 Cr5 - TR Emerald
Planetside Chapter Commander - Archangels
http://www.archangelsclan.net
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51790] |
Fri, 17 October 2003 18:58 |
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boma57
Messages: 581
Registered: April 2003
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Colonel |
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| snipefrag |
| Taximes |
One thing that bothered me during the Architect scene was the other Neos on the monitors. It just doesn't fit...
They spoke as if to exemplify the architect's description of the previous anomolies, but...
1. There was way more than the 5 previous "Ones" who were supposed to have existed.
2. They wouldn't all look the same...Sure, I suppose the machines could edit the genetics, but what's the point of that? Plus, if they could identify the anomoly to edit his genetics, there would have been no need for all the elaborate systems. They could've just killed him
So it could've just been symbolic, or the Wachowski's are doing something really cheesy if they make all the anomolies look the same.
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You missed the point, there needed to be an annomaly because humans rejected the perfect world, the annomaly was created also as a mesure of time. Damn its to late to be talking about the matrix in depth... im going to bed
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I know why there were other anomolies, that's not what I was talking about 
I was just talking about how the other Neos on the screen seem to represent the other anomolies (IE - responding to the Architect when he speaks of them), but there are too many of them for this to be true, so...what was their actual purpose? Just to be a metaphor?
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51805] |
Sat, 18 October 2003 01:24 |
Cypher [PCNC]
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| Taximes |
2. They wouldn't all look the same...Sure, I suppose the machines could edit the genetics, but what's the point of that? Plus, if they could identify the anomoly to edit his genetics, there would have been no need for all the elaborate systems. They could've just killed him
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First of all, those other Neos can just be the various possibilities the Architect calculated that Neo would take.
Like, for example, Deus Ex and its various plotlines.... They are all the same person, but each taking a different road to reach the end.
Secondly, the purpose if NOT to kill Neo. Taximes, go watch the Architect scene again.....
Neo, just like he says at the end, or rather The One is part of the control.
He mustn't be killed.
Think of Neo as the outlet of all the anomalies. He is the begining and the end, or rather the end and the begining.
By finishing his quest, which started before he was actually born inside the Matrix and includes all the prophecies and whatnot, he brings the destruction of Zion (controlling the outside population) while at the same time the resetting of the Matrix construct and starting the next cycle.
The machines can't kill Neo as much as they can't choose to destroy humanity on their own. That's why they give Neo that choice. Destroy humanity completly or reset the Matrix.
(Smith is an anomaly in its own right. As Reloaded and Revolutions tell us.)
If you read Asimov's Foundation books then I believe the situation there is similar. Just like Danil (I believe that was the name of that robot that was looking after Humanity and following Asimov's Zero law of Robotics) needed that council member from the Foundation bound planet, since he exhibited extraodinary abilities at picking the correct, in hind sight perhaps, possibilities.... Hence Danil needed him to choose for Humanity, instead of Danil himself, who was bound by the 4 laws of Robotics including the Zero law and Humanity was getting to large for him to calculate (went beyond his own calculations and Harry Saldon's psychohistory).
So I believe the situation in Reloaded is similar.
The machines, the Architect, can't choose to destroy humanity. But they can also accept various level of survival. Hence they leave the choice to The One. A human element in their giagantic Matrix/control scheme.
The previous five had obviously chosen to save Humanity. This one, Neo, has a new thing to consider; Trinity. Love. And though the machines aren't lying to him and are ultimately correct (Trinity did die and Neo couldn't do anything about it, except for after the effect, reviving her, but not saving her from death which is what the Architect meant that he couldn't save her), Neo believes he can overcome it all.
He doesn't want to be a "victim of causality" as the Merovingian puts it. He wants choice. Hence he chooses to save Trinity or at least to try and do it.
As for Bane....
Yeah. If you haven't figured it out by now, he is Smith. Or rather, Smith copied himself on to Bane's brain. Overwritten any trace of Bane.
As for the Orcale....
Yeah, the brothers have claimed that they meant to have the Oracle to transform to something new anyway (not a new actress, but maybe something different, CGI and voice over....). And this transformation took place during Reloaded.
Anyone that played Enter The Matrix, which does contribute a lot of such small and intricate details to the storyline (propheices to both Ghost and Niobe, Ghost' love for Trinity etc'), has already seen the new Oracle with Ghost and Niobe.
Cypher
@ Planet Command & Conquer
http://www.planetcnc.com
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51814] |
Sat, 18 October 2003 04:19 |
Cypher [PCNC]
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Third Matrix? You mean the first?
The architect itself says that since Neo is a predictable and an intentional anomaly (cause without the anomaly, it would be a perfect world and, as both the Architect and Smith said, the perfect world programming wasn't recieved... well) he is not without a measure of control.
They can control. The whole thing around him... The prophecies, the agents sent after him, the Oracle guiding him....
Remember, twice already the Oracle has lead Neo to something. Tricked him into it once (in The Matrix, when she told him about the choice he was going to have to make, saving Morpheus... it is safe to assume that had she not told him about it and about how important Morpheus is, he wouldn't have risked his life for him, she didn't tell him what he is, she told him what he needed to hear in order to become The One) and almost blatantly told him what to do the second time (without telling him why, the Merovingian makes it clear enough), finding the Keymaker.
They don't need to control him directly. Just to nudge him to various directions.
The first matrix failed because most DIDN'T accept the programing. Because it was perfect. Unnatural to human nature, according to both Smith and the Architect. I believe the words of the Architect state that "none" accepted the programing of that perfect world. Anomaly free.
But the imperfect world, had anomalies. Anomalies, that if left unchecked and uncontrolled would escalate and become a disaster for the machine. I.E. the freedom of human kind.
The One is not the anomaly. He is the outlet, the release, of all anomalies. The sum of the anomalies, personified and used to control the anomaly by resetting the Matrix.
Cypher
@ Planet Command & Conquer
http://www.planetcnc.com
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51899] |
Sat, 18 October 2003 14:17 |
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boma57
Messages: 581
Registered: April 2003
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Colonel |
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| Cypher [PCNC |
]Third Matrix? You mean the first?
The architect itself says that since Neo is a predictable and an intentional anomaly (cause without the anomaly, it would be a perfect world and, as both the Architect and Smith said, the perfect world programming wasn't recieved... well) he is not without a measure of control.
They can control. The whole thing around him... The prophecies, the agents sent after him, the Oracle guiding him....
Remember, twice already the Oracle has lead Neo to something. Tricked him into it once (in The Matrix, when she told him about the choice he was going to have to make, saving Morpheus... it is safe to assume that had she not told him about it and about how important Morpheus is, he wouldn't have risked his life for him, she didn't tell him what he is, she told him what he needed to hear in order to become The One) and almost blatantly told him what to do the second time (without telling him why, the Merovingian makes it clear enough), finding the Keymaker.
They don't need to control him directly. Just to nudge him to various directions.
The first matrix failed because most DIDN'T accept the programing. Because it was perfect. Unnatural to human nature, according to both Smith and the Architect. I believe the words of the Architect state that "none" accepted the programing of that perfect world. Anomaly free.
But the imperfect world, had anomalies. Anomalies, that if left unchecked and uncontrolled would escalate and become a disaster for the machine. I.E. the freedom of human kind.
The One is not the anomaly. He is the outlet, the release, of all anomalies. The sum of the anomalies, personified and used to control the anomaly by resetting the Matrix.
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No, I mean the third Matrix.
The first failed because it was a utopia which people expected to wake up from. The second Matrix had added "grotesqueries", but still failed because of a lack of [the illusion] of choice. In the third Matrix, they were given the illusion of choice and this is where the anomaly appeared. They didn't create the anomaly, he was the inevitable result of the illusion. The very small percentage that did not accept it.
Therefore, the third Matrix "failed". It may not have crashed, but it needed refined again. They had to tweak it once more to accomodate this anomaly, and this is when they set up these further systems of control.
The anomalies were not created as any part of the system, they were merely a flaw which had to be accomodated for. IE:
| Quote: |
Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which, despite my sincerest efforts, I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden acidulously avoided it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control; which has led you inexorably, here.
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As you can see, the anomaly was not created on purpose, but it was accounted for ("While it remains a burden acidulously avoided it is not unexpected..."). However, should the Architect have been able to elliminate the anomaly, it is undoubetdly certain that he would have done so ("You are the eventuality of an anomaly which, despite my sincerest efforts, I have been unable to eliminate.").
It's also shown that the anomaly was quite unsought from this quote as well:
| Quote: |
"...she stumbled upon a solution where by nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refuse the program, while a minority if left unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of disaster."
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The anomaly cannot be directly controlled, period. If they could directly identify and control the anomaly, there would be no need to fear the "escalating probability of disaster" from the "unchecked minority". They may not be able to directly control the actions of said anomaly, however they can (like you said) vastly influence them, enter the Oracle and Agents.
He himself is a system of control by being a beacon of hope for those of Zion, and he is also under many systems of control himself, but he has the ability to defy them. (Choosing the wrong door)
[Updated on: Sat, 18 October 2003 15:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Matrix Revolutions [message #51949] |
Sat, 18 October 2003 21:53 |
Cypher [PCNC]
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Oh right, sorry. Third Matrix.
Still, my point is that he created the grotesqueries and the unbalanced equation on purpose. Thus, just like math, it is not unexpect and not beyond control.
Think about... Office Space, if you've seen the movie. The guys created a virus that basically took percentages of small ammounts of left over money, truncated and rounded, and put the aside (at least that was their intent). Those fragments of money are the anomalies. They are not beyond control, since they know about them.
The anomalies are a flaw. But an intentional flaw. A flaw that allows those nearly 99% accept the programing. These anomalies become embodied in The One that is another system of control (I didn't mean control him, cause that isn't done directly, I meant that HE himself is a system of control).
Once the anomalies reach a certain stage, a certain fermentation, the end of The One's quest, in this case, it resets the Matrix. Resets the control. Zion, real world or not, it doesn't matter, is as much a part of the Matrix as anyone connected to it. By way of being yet another system of control. By way of being a giant support system that would bring hope to The One or whoever, before he actually understands his purpose and fulfills it, by allowing the destruction of the then current Zion, the freeing of 23 individuals and then all 24 start a new Zion and the entire circle starts a new.
Again, The One is NOT the anomaly. He is the embodiment of multiple anomalies. The outlet of those anomalies that allows all of man kind to exist further.
The anomalies cannot be controled, yet they are intentionally there. The equation is unbalanced on purpose. However, the embodiment of the anomalies, The One, is not beyond control. Indirect control, more often than not, but still control.
That's the point.
The Matrix is a system of control. Zion is an integral part of that control. The One is as integral a part as Zion or the Matrix Construct itself of that grand system of control.
P.S.
Technically, the first and second Matrices didn't have systemic anomalies.
So perhaps, this would actually be the 8th Matrix, the first two being... uncounted and unmarked prototypes (which probably didn't last very long anyway). Just a thought, really.
Cypher
@ Planet Command & Conquer
http://www.planetcnc.com
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