Home » Renegade Discussions » Mod Forum » Red Alert: FPS
| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483829 is a reply to message #483472] |
Thu, 03 October 2013 18:21   |
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Aircraftkiller
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Registered: February 2003
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| zunnie wrote on Sun, 22 September 2013 13:23 |
Oh and aCk, i heared you are complaining about my joblessness, yea man, i am jobless at this moment for a while now, but other than that i have a life though  Thanks.
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There is that, Nikki.
| zunnie wrote on Sun, 22 September 2013 13:23 |
i am jobless at this moment for a while now
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| zunnie wrote on Sun, 22 September 2013 13:23 |
i am jobless at this moment
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| zunnie wrote on Sun, 22 September 2013 13:23 |
i am jobless
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| zunnie wrote on Sun, 22 September 2013 13:23 |
i have a life though
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A++++++++++ great post, would lol again
[Updated on: Thu, 03 October 2013 18:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483846 is a reply to message #483472] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 11:05 |
robbyke
Messages: 348
Registered: September 2010
Location: Belgium
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well even though i shouldnt be responding here, i always see the same things happen on this forum
someone tries, nearly everyone tries to shoot it down.
however renegade is near dead, and noone around here has even considered to even take whole renegade to a new engine, upgrade scripts and make it equally modable as renegade is now.
I believe that most of these oh so good guys could create a "new" renegade, which tbh really doesnt have to be based on any rts game if you guys have some imagination.
it would make renegade newer and removes the EA limits, on top it would make it possible to get it on steam if were lucky
as an extra all the fun things people can do will still be possible in which i think mods, mapping etc, the main reason i stil code for renegade is because i dont know a game in which i would find it fun to create something because most game are way to limited in their gameplay
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| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483849 is a reply to message #483846] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 14:14 |
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Mauler
Messages: 448
Registered: May 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
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Commander |
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| robbyke wrote on Fri, 04 October 2013 12:05 |
well even though i shouldnt be responding here, i always see the same things happen on this forum
someone tries, nearly everyone tries to shoot it down.
however renegade is near dead, and noone around here has even considered to even take whole renegade to a new engine, upgrade scripts and make it equally modable as renegade is now.
I believe that most of these oh so good guys could create a "new" renegade, which tbh really doesnt have to be based on any rts game if you guys have some imagination.
it would make renegade newer and removes the EA limits, on top it would make it possible to get it on steam if were lucky
as an extra all the fun things people can do will still be possible in which i think mods, mapping etc, the main reason i stil code for renegade is because i dont know a game in which i would find it fun to create something because most game are way to limited in their gameplay
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I'm guessing you've never heard of Renegade-X...
I for one am eager for MP release, and plan on modding that when the time comes
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| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483850 is a reply to message #483846] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 15:05 |
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Mad Ivan
Messages: 513
Registered: February 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Karma: 0
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| robbyke wrote on Fri, 04 October 2013 11:05 |
however renegade is near dead, and noone around here has even considered to even take whole renegade to a new engine, upgrade
scripts and make it equally modable as renegade is now.
I believe that most of these oh so good guys could create a "new" renegade, which tbh really doesnt have to be based on any rts game if you guys have some imagination.
as an extra all the fun things people can do will still be possible in which i think mods, mapping etc [...]
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If you are suggesting building a modern engine, which is backwards-compatible with Renegade's assets and scripts, I would recommend trying that out for yourself first (no offence meant) and reflecting on the process about a month in. Impossible - no; but very very long (and possibly very frustrating) - yes. It doesn't matter how "good" someone is. Fact is that the good people have a job in that area, which pays their bills. Doing something like the above will do nothing, but broaden their portfolio, which is nice if you are stuck with a shitty job (or jobless, to which I'll come back in a minute) and out of education, but doesn't do much otherwise (this applies especially to designers and artists, IMO).
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the main reason i stil code for renegade is because i dont know a game in which i would find it fun to create something because most game are way to limited in their gameplay
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I find the argument that UDK is limited in the different types of gameplay mechanics that you can implement to be very naive. The same goes for Unity. My educated guess is that CryEngine isn't far behind either.
A common argument among people is that there aren't enough resources out there for people to learn from, which isn't true.
Another argument is that it's too hard or complicated, because of all the features. A modernized re-make of the Renegade engine would be complicated as well. Graphics pipelines aren't what they used to be as we've moved away from the fixed pipeline (which vanilla W3D is) and are focusing on a programmable pipeline (shaders, which Saberhawk nicely chiselled into the engine). We have post-processing, different lighting models (to name a couple) and I don't even want to start on the physics. With so much "freedom" there is no way it won't get complicated.
If learning a new programming language (UnrealScript) is too much, scripts.dll coders should be familiar with C++, which would make their transition into C# smooth (for Unity).
Now, not having a job isn't actually such a bad thing, if you want to do game development (in one form or another) and find it fun. It's a great opportunity to do something cool and pave your way into a career. With that being said, I fail to see how using an outdated, limited, practically ancient game engine to redo something that's already been done ages ago (using the same engine) is doing anyone any good. The argument here is that the gameplay is going to be different, but how different can it be, provided that the Renegade "package" is mostly good for making Renegade-like games (aka "way to limited in their gameplay")? Is it worth the effort?
I skimmed over a few comments about CS' success. I would remind you that CS was a mod for a state-of-the-art blockbuster game (of it's time), which already had established a strong, vibrant online community before the mod was released. Another argument is that CS is *extremely* easy to pick up and play. "Pick up gun and shoot" is a pretty detailed description of the gameplay, IMO. Not to forget that the setting of the game is such, that your average Joe could relate to (the buzzword is "immersion" here).
Since I realize, that I might sound a bit aggressive, the point of this post isn't to bring you down. Not at all! I think that what you are doing is in it's essence cool, but kind of pointless. Why not do something fresh and modern instead?
Red Alert has never been my cup of tea, but it's ok. Why not have a dark, gritty (heck I can imagine it with gore, even) take on it in UDK, instead of doing something that mostly it's developers will play?
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| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483851 is a reply to message #483850] |
Fri, 04 October 2013 23:51 |
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reborn
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Location: uk - london
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| Mad Ivan wrote on Fri, 04 October 2013 18:05 |
| robbyke wrote on Fri, 04 October 2013 11:05 |
however renegade is near dead, and noone around here has even considered to even take whole renegade to a new engine, upgrade
scripts and make it equally modable as renegade is now.
I believe that most of these oh so good guys could create a "new" renegade, which tbh really doesnt have to be based on any rts game if you guys have some imagination.
as an extra all the fun things people can do will still be possible in which i think mods, mapping etc [...]
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If you are suggesting building a modern engine, which is backwards-compatible with Renegade's assets and scripts, I would recommend trying that out for yourself first (no offence meant) and reflecting on the process about a month in. Impossible - no; but very very long (and possibly very frustrating) - yes. It doesn't matter how "good" someone is. Fact is that the good people have a job in that area, which pays their bills. Doing something like the above will do nothing, but broaden their portfolio, which is nice if you are stuck with a shitty job (or jobless, to which I'll come back in a minute) and out of education, but doesn't do much otherwise (this applies especially to designers and artists, IMO).
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the main reason i stil code for renegade is because i dont know a game in which i would find it fun to create something because most game are way to limited in their gameplay
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I find the argument that UDK is limited in the different types of gameplay mechanics that you can implement to be very naive. The same goes for Unity. My educated guess is that CryEngine isn't far behind either.
A common argument among people is that there aren't enough resources out there for people to learn from, which isn't true.
Another argument is that it's too hard or complicated, because of all the features. A modernized re-make of the Renegade engine would be complicated as well. Graphics pipelines aren't what they used to be as we've moved away from the fixed pipeline (which vanilla W3D is) and are focusing on a programmable pipeline (shaders, which Saberhawk nicely chiselled into the engine). We have post-processing, different lighting models (to name a couple) and I don't even want to start on the physics. With so much "freedom" there is no way it won't get complicated.
If learning a new programming language (UnrealScript) is too much, scripts.dll coders should be familiar with C++, which would make their transition into C# smooth (for Unity).
Now, not having a job isn't actually such a bad thing, if you want to do game development (in one form or another) and find it fun. It's a great opportunity to do something cool and pave your way into a career. With that being said, I fail to see how using an outdated, limited, practically ancient game engine to redo something that's already been done ages ago (using the same engine) is doing anyone any good. The argument here is that the gameplay is going to be different, but how different can it be, provided that the Renegade "package" is mostly good for making Renegade-like games (aka "way to limited in their gameplay")? Is it worth the effort?
I skimmed over a few comments about CS' success. I would remind you that CS was a mod for a state-of-the-art blockbuster game (of it's time), which already had established a strong, vibrant online community before the mod was released. Another argument is that CS is *extremely* easy to pick up and play. "Pick up gun and shoot" is a pretty detailed description of the gameplay, IMO. Not to forget that the setting of the game is such, that your average Joe could relate to (the buzzword is "immersion" here).
Since I realize, that I might sound a bit aggressive, the point of this post isn't to bring you down. Not at all! I think that what you are doing is in it's essence cool, but kind of pointless. Why not do something fresh and modern instead?
Red Alert has never been my cup of tea, but it's ok. Why not have a dark, gritty (heck I can imagine it with gore, even) take on it in UDK, instead of doing something that mostly it's developers will play?
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You're so right. You have some really good, well explained points that really hit home. You also have some good ideas, too. Nice post!
The only thing is, Zunnie and company are doing this because they find exactly what they are doing fun and enjoyable. They're not doing it for the reasons you mention, and have little aspiration to do so. I'd wager that they're mainly doing this for themselves, and would like some players to join them, but the real goal is to make it, rather than have it received favourably by a large audience, learn marketable skills or improve portfolio's and CV's.
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| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483854 is a reply to message #483849] |
Sat, 05 October 2013 04:39 |
robbyke
Messages: 348
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Location: Belgium
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| Mauler wrote on Fri, 04 October 2013 23:14 |
I'm guessing you've never heard of Renegade-X...
I for one am eager for MP release, and plan on modding that when the time comes
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ive heard of it, and i keep an eye out for it, however i am totally not skilled enough to be able to create my own ssgm like functionality, mainly because i find it hard to learn decompiling and most game are protected against it.
ive even tried to do it with renegade just to learn the proces however i just cant find the tools/tutorials for it so i kinda gave up on the thing
its easy to talk when you already now that kind of stuff it quite hard to learn it.especially on your own
Owner of kambot TT server
kambot.freeforums.org
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| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483857 is a reply to message #483854] |
Sat, 05 October 2013 14:03 |
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Mad Ivan
Messages: 513
Registered: February 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| robbyke wrote on Sat, 05 October 2013 04:39 |
ive heard of it, and i keep an eye out for it, however i am totally not skilled enough to be able to create my own ssgm like functionality, mainly because i find it hard to learn decompiling and most game are protected against it.
ive even tried to do it with renegade just to learn the proces however i just cant find the tools/tutorials for it so i kinda gave up on the thing
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In reverse order to your post, I'll skip the "its easy to talk" bit for now, but I'll get back to it later.
The topic of "decompilation"-based (or "exe hacking") mods is a really broad and controversial one, so I'll spare any details that come to mind. There are no(t a lot of) "general" tutorials on how to do this, because you already need to be a ^good^ (actually, very experienced and brilliant fit the description better, IMO) programmer to understand what's going on under the hood. Every engine is different and the more experience you've got with implementing different games from scratch in different contexts, the more sense things will make when looking at the code structure, coming out of a disassembler. Games in general are "protected against it", because by injecting their own code, people can write exploits, allowing for cheats and/or even worse (identity theft comes to mind), which adds "understanding compilers" and "understanding obfuscation techniques" to the skills list if you want to venture into something like that.
I, personally, perceive things like recompiling scripts.dll (jonwill), some of the major improvements to the Renegade engine (Sir Kane, Saberhawk, jonwill) and other simmilar projects like a sort of really impressive, amazing voodoo, done by some of the best witchdoctors around.
So with that said, why bother to do that kind of stuff in the first place, when there are enough modern, well-documented, general-purpose, feature-rich engines out there (that don't require you to get your hands dirty with writing in assembly...or feeding Russian hacking forum topics into Google Translate)?
From what I understand, once the multi-player version (of Renegade-X) is out, they will ship a development kit for map-makers and coders. With 90% certainty, I think that the language will be UnrealScript - Renegade-X, after all, is made in UDK. My bet is that they will ship UDK with the Renegade X assets and code. All the more reasons for people to start picking UDK up (if the previous weren't enough).
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its easy to talk when you already now that kind of stuff it quite hard to learn it.especially on your own
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I can see the "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" argument, but some of the people, who post here have actually been in that position before.
Pardon me for the autobiography,
Toggle Spoiler but I started modding Tiberian Sun in 2000, at the age of 12 ("coding"). I tried picking up my first C++ book when I was around 14. None of my relatives are in a technical/engineering profession (as a matter of fact, my mother dismissed my interest in making games and mods as a waste of time), my IT-inclined friends at the time were far more interested in how cool this piece of hardware is over the other, so they couldn't be bothered with the "programming nonsense", teachers in high-school couldn't be bothered with spending time with me about something that we might cover for an year in IT class when I turn 17. After Generals, I "retired" from modding to focus on my studies. I didn't mingle with people, who code until I went to uni at the age of 18, so in that span of 6 years I was completely on my own - books, tutorials, write code, repeat, experiment. When I started my first degree (in Informatics), I was ahead of most of my classmates, when it came to Programming classes.
My reasons for quitting that degree and going abroad are completely irrelevant to the topic of learning the "kind of stuff", so I'll cut to the chase. It is hard doing it on your own, and based on what I've said above, I think that I completely understand you and a lot of the people who are just starting out (or are anxious about starting out). At the same time I can't help to think that people nowadays are exposed to so much more sources of information, compared to back in the days, so with that in mind, I think that "quite hard to learn it.especially on your own" is a bit exaggerated.
It's no walk in the park, but nowadays there are ways to learn things (that used to require going to specialized schools) without leaving your home. People can go beyond the basics and even into so many other areas without having to shove money into an institution and/or spend ages sourcing materials from books. There are so many forums, Google+ Hangouts, communities - It's crazy!
| reborn wrote on Fri, 04 October 2013 23:51 |
You're so right. You have some really good, well explained points that really hit home. You also have some good ideas, too. Nice post!
The only thing is, Zunnie and company are doing this because they find exactly what they are doing fun and enjoyable. They're not doing it for the reasons you mention, and have little aspiration to do so. I'd wager that they're mainly doing this for themselves, and would like some players to join them, but the real goal is to make it, rather than have it received favourably by a large audience, learn marketable skills or improve portfolio's and CV's.
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Thank you :-]
A few things escape me, then. If they are making it just for the sake of making it, why post about it? Why make an indieDB page about it? Why get into a "cs made it big <passive aggressive about how we can make it big>" argument? Why defend an engine choice? Why the whole MPF thing in the first place? It's like having a marketing machine for the sake of having a marketing machine?
I've read "MPF Production" topics before and the reason why I'm bothering with replying to this one is that about 80% of the game-dev job descriptions I've read in the past 3 years feature "passion for making games" and these guys seem to have it... which is really great (and kind of admirable - I know people on GamDev courses in uni, who don't), but are going about it a weird way, which is kind of disappointing... and pointless.
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[Updated on: Sat, 05 October 2013 14:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483902 is a reply to message #483472] |
Fri, 11 October 2013 20:57 |
shaitan
Messages: 727
Registered: April 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Banned from a channel you were not even talking in. What is the point in that?
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:38 |
I get along with people fine, so long as they aren't rejects who promised things that they couldn't
deliver on, or forum trolls who contribute nothing except to bloat the fragile egos of the same
rejects I despise.
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| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483928 is a reply to message #483890] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 05:04 |
Generalcamo
Messages: 522
Registered: October 2010
Karma: 0
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| zunnie wrote on Fri, 11 October 2013 08:54 |
I figured you would post here lmao.
That ban has nothing to do with RA:FPS so i wonder why you post here.
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So... what was the reason?
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| Re: Red Alert: FPS [message #483938 is a reply to message #483937] |
Sun, 13 October 2013 21:08 |
Sean
Messages: 822
Registered: February 2009
Karma: 0
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Yeah..it's always a great idea to push someone that still cares and works on Renegade away.
There's joking around, then there's plain insulting and idiotic trolling...
I'm personally glad that zunnie or his staff don't take you guys seriously.. MPF would be like any other community then that doesn't really give a shit and doesn't try new shit.
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