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Re: Questions I would like to pose to athiests [message #462128 is a reply to message #462116] Mon, 30 January 2012 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
R315r4z0r is currently offline  R315r4z0r
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Spoony wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 16:34

unless the religion makes claims about the way stuff is, as they so frequently do.

I don't understand. What do their claims have anything to do with the way you or I or anyone else perceives things? They can believe what they want to believe and I can do the same. Just because we may not agree doesn't mean I have to get all pissy and argue with their beliefs.
Spoony wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 16:34


may i ask why you used a capital G in 'god'? is it because you're referring to a specific god?

No, not specifically. That's just how I've always seen the word written, so I just assumed it was correct. To be honest, I'm actually not very good at grammar...

Spoony wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 16:34


depends what you think "the other side" is. despite the ludicrous earlier post, an atheist needn't assert the non-existence of this or that god; an atheist can simply reject religion, and/or say they do not find any of these religions convincing. the complete absence of evidence for this or that religion does support this atheist position.

I'm not sure if you're under the wrong impression of what atheism is or what religion is. Atheism is the rejection of theism (hence the prefix "a"). The broadest definition of theism is merely the belief that at least one 'god' exists. Therefore, the rejection to that would be the idea that not even one 'god' exists. Both are under the even broader term of religion.

But to get back to what you were saying, failing to prove the claims of one religion is not evidence to support the belief in atheism. Thinking so is a fallacy and is just as bad any other religion out there claiming to be right. What reason do you have to hold your beliefs over the beliefs of others? Just because they can't prove their religious beliefs are true doesn't mean you don't have to in return.

If someone on a murder trial cannot produce evidence to prove that they aren't guilty, that doesn't mean that they are guilty. Until one side can display evidence then the point remains neutral.

You can continuously swat down the theories of god(s) that people propose for years on end. But doing so will not progress the final verdict of the debate anywhere. The only thing that doing that proves is the fact that nobody actually knows anything.


Spoony wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 16:34


it often depends whether they have power or not.

I can see why you would say that. And I would actually agree with you. But I also want to point out my original post wasn't speaking in absolutes; it was more of an observational opinion of mine I was sharing. (Also my attempt to troll the thread back to life)

I can see why having someone in power who harbors firm beliefs for something can be a threat against the ideals of those who disagree. But the thing is, however, if we go this route then we wouldn't be talking about the belief in whether or not a supreme being exists anymore. We would be talking about politics and how said person in power is running their country (or town, or group or whatever it is they have power over).


Spoony wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 16:34


when you say "cram their beliefs down my throat", is it possible what you actually mean is "engage in civilised conversation"? cos that's what people who say that usually turn out to mean
No, I did not. A civilized conversation is what I'd assume to be what we are having now. But an instance of cramming one's ideals into someone else would be getting defensive whenever someone mentions something that is disagreeable.

Spoony wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 16:34


where did you see anyone say that? is it possible you just made it up?
Applying the concept of a moocher here is something I made up. But the idea is most certainly not something I made up.

Most people who I see that claim to be atheists are usually students. I once new someone who was so outspoken about their belief in atheism that they didn't even know that Jesus was a real person. He thought that the existence of Jesus was part of the religious belief itself and therefore argued that he never existed.

I find it very rare to find someone my age who is actually informed enough to make an actual decision about the their beliefs. There are people like that, but they are in the minority.

But that is why I said a layer of people who claim to be atheists are moochers. To put it another way, it's very similar to the "TL;DR" concept that you find online. If something is too long, people will just decide to ignore it completely. These people I'm talking about just don't have an interest to learn about other religions and simply turn to atheism by default since they think it is the easiest. If asked to explain why they are atheists, they probably wouldn't be able to provide a convincing position as to why they believe what they believe.

However, don't take that as me saying that all atheists are like that. No, that's why I specifically said a layer of people. Also, I realize that the observations I made are purely from my little slice of the population and obviously is in no way a representation of people as a whole.


Spoony wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 16:34

Quote:

Neither is proven true (or false) and both are merely religious beliefs. And yes, for your moochers, BOTH are religious beliefs. Atheism is a rejection of a God, not a rejection of religion since the rejection of a God is a religion in and of itself.

That's why the only true belief, for anyone who holds logic above all that they believe, is Agnosticism.

there are at least three words here you seem to have pretty weird definitions for.

Which ones would that be? I'll venture a guess and say atheism, logic and agnosticism?

Spoony wrote on Mon, 30 January 2012 16:34


k, swap the christian god for Zeus. no proof for him, and you can't strictly prove his non-existence either (and that's even after we more or less know how and why thunder and lightning happens). one group of people says zeus is real and spends time praying to him in the expectation that he can hear them, the other group goes about their business as if zeus were fictional.

if you think both of these positions are equally supported by the lack of evidence for zeus, you're a fool.

You've lost me. I don't understand your example or why it is any different from any other system of beliefs. Also, I've already said that the lack of evidence is NOT evidence in itself. Meaning if neither belief can prove they are right then neither belief is can be supported.

Saying both sides are supported through the lack of proof to disprove either of them is a fallacy. Without evidence, neither are right nor wrong.
 
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