Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Map rating
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| Re: Map rating [message #458144 is a reply to message #458128] |
Wed, 19 October 2011 23:40   |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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| liquidv2 wrote on Wed, 19 October 2011 23:26 |
| Azazel wrote on Wed, 19 October 2011 14:07 |
You're kidding right?
A good mrls player > a good arty player, in terms of killing the support if you know how to aim the mrls properly.
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does anyone else support this statement?
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Well, no...
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Map rating [message #458180 is a reply to message #458145] |
Thu, 20 October 2011 16:04 |
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Starbuzz
Messages: 2500
Registered: May 2007
Karma: 2
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General (2 Stars) |
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| iRANian wrote on Wed, 19 October 2011 04:44 |
westwood used to run 24 and 32 player servers iirc
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yes Prince, but does increasing the player slots on the official servers have anything to do with the max amount of players the game/maps were designed to handle...dont ya think? 
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 19 October 2011 02:07 |
remove pointbug + infinite infantry ammo + fix mesa deadzones = balanced
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I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp. Fixing the balance should not require changes to the entire way the game is played because there is risk of messing up too many things and ending in a quagmire...and as Goztow points out, you wind up with perpetual tweaking.
| ELiT3FLyR wrote on Wed, 19 October 2011 10:51 |
really there is nothing else to it other than the fact that you play a map like islands which was never designed to play with more than like 16 people and play with 50 people. ofcourse nod will win, gdi cant even fit enough tanks through the passages at the same time to kill the arts. then you play city fly or volcano and its much more balanced because the maps are big enough to accomodate more people.
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gold quote; probably why Volcano became my favorite non-base defense map.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 19 October 2011 14:19 |
| iRANian wrote on Wed, 19 October 2011 09:20 |
how come nod wins some maps 80% of the time with them then?
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because at least half the people in public servers don't know what they're doing. i don't like saying it but it must be said.
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I can't believe we are talking about balance changes when what you said above is true.
| Caveman wrote on Wed, 19 October 2011 04:05 |
Take fjords for example (Im not going get into that debate again) its a very pretty map and you did a great job however I personally think its a horrible map (gameplay wise)
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I think "horrible" is too evil to say about Fjords! The map does have some good balance changes by trying to make the rocket-launching units useful. I said I half-agree because I don't like the idea of sniper rifles/ramjets being essentially taken out of the picture...err game.
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probably why I feel all of stock Renegade's balance problems are solved if pointsfix/inf ammo/deadzone fix are implemented as it preserves the battles as we have always played and keeps them going fast and fluid. Smaller symmetrical maps beautifully tie in with the game mechanics...if you had large maps like Cairo, then snipers/ramjetters VS light vehicles would be a nuisance and difficult to locate at the heat of the moment (still easily managable and/or the flyer can switch to tanks)...but in a great map like City_Fly, there are a few standard places to instantly check for a sniper/ramjetter. The game balances itself out pretty well.
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| Re: Map rating [message #458182 is a reply to message #372303] |
Thu, 20 October 2011 17:01 |
iRANian
Messages: 4308
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 0
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General (4 Stars) |
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Except when you put on pointsmod
"Nod had Complex, Hourglass, Islands, Mesa, Walls_Flying, and Canyon by the balls
Complex and Islands were a Nod win nearly 4/5 of the time"
while running without pointsmod the maps were pretty balanced
Long time and well respected Renegade community member, programmer, modder and tester.
Scripts 4.0 private beta tester since May 2011.
My Renegade server plugins releases
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| Re: Map rating [message #458187 is a reply to message #372303] |
Thu, 20 October 2011 17:16 |
iRANian
Messages: 4308
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 0
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General (4 Stars) |
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Yes I remember that data. They did disallow hill camping on hourglass though and you also had to be over the second river on islands for both teams. And the players were a lot better than the downers playing today.
Marathon had a 32 player limit and it had the default Renegade vehicle limit, teams had to mass by shelling tanks and reviving them later, which also meant you could only do med/light masses basically.
Long time and well respected Renegade community member, programmer, modder and tester.
Scripts 4.0 private beta tester since May 2011.
My Renegade server plugins releases
[Updated on: Thu, 20 October 2011 17:20] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Map rating [message #458188 is a reply to message #458036] |
Thu, 20 October 2011 17:18 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Aircraftkiller wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 06:01 |
Renegade's balance sucks. If someone has the time to balance it out effectively, I encourage them to do so. If you enjoy Renegade's gameplay as it stands now, with no modifications, you enjoy a broken game that only works because the underlying foundation is strong enough to keep it propped up.
I spent months working on Fjords and getting the balancing tweaked to the point that it's how Renegade should have played. I think most people appreciate that, instead of playing the same broken shit they've played for many years.
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OK, you just lost all my respect.
Statistical analysis has proven that Renegade is extremely balanced. The largest difference on stock maps was on Mesa, with if I remember correctly a difference within 5% win/loss ratio. Find a game that's more balanced with different units and is a FPS, please!
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: Map rating [message #458189 is a reply to message #372303] |
Thu, 20 October 2011 17:24 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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You're arguing that the game is balanced overall because certain units make others nearly worthless. Maybe "balance" means something else to you than it does to me. Perhaps you might like imagining a scale where Havoc and Sakura weigh the same amount as Buggies, Humm-vees, Orcas, Apaches, Transport Helicopters, all infantry, MRLS and Artillery. The fact that one type of unit can counter so many different things, with little fear of retaliation, is not balanced. I don't really give a shit about the win/loss ratios in this case.
/if your respect is so easily lost because I disagree with you on a slightly controversial subject, your respect is something I don't need
//slashies
[Updated on: Thu, 20 October 2011 17:25] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Map rating [message #458190 is a reply to message #458058] |
Thu, 20 October 2011 17:28 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| liquidv2 wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 18:00 |
| Goztow wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 01:37 |
If you then play with 0 starting credits, no donate and no other shitty modifications, then the win-loss % is around 50 % (BI once tested this, BTW).
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Black-Intel never had enough players to accurately test ideal ren in my opinion (somewhere between 10v10 to 20v20, 32 total players being the ideal)
what i go by is when we had it on Jelly 1, which had over 10 players per side every day on average
it was pretty filthy
Nod had Complex, Hourglass, Islands, Mesa, Walls_Flying, and Canyon by the balls
Complex and Islands were a Nod win nearly 4/5 of the time
GDI maps included (surprisingly) City and City_Flying, and Walls
Volcano was nearly dead even, which is why i like it so much
| Omar007 wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 02:45 |
Don't you mean 'Mutation Redux'???
Also, when the list is made, are there any plans of making it a mappack?
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no, i meant what i typed
i know Snow, Fjords, and Mutation_Redux are all cool already so i didn't bother adding them to that list
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First, it's BlackIntel, thank you.
Second, we've had the ENTIRE RENLADDER database for this test.
Third, you're making the mistake of presuming that renegade games are only fun when there are 10 or more people playing on either side.
Fourth, you're basing your facts only of one server, one where players claim to have too little credits when the pointfix is applied. (Yes you can argue against point fix, but then you should change it so health gives the same --ridiculous-- amount of moneys as armour).
Conclusion: if you do not stick your head up your ass and look to all numbers of player counts, Renegade is EXTREMELY balanced. Obviously the balance favours certain amounts of players per map, but that's also due to the vehicle limit that does not scale with player limit.
Would the vehicles be limited to ABS(<players per team>/2-1) (which is the case with the "maximum" of 16 players per team) then the game would scale extremely well.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: Map rating [message #458202 is a reply to message #458199] |
Fri, 21 October 2011 01:02 |
Sean
Messages: 822
Registered: February 2009
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Jerad Gray wrote on Thu, 20 October 2011 23:14 |
Truthfully, I have to admit I've been killed by more MRLSs then I have by Artilleries.
They can be sneaky and shoot around corners and shit ya know.
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Finally someone that knows how to play. 
Head admin at TmX (The Matrix Sniper server)
irc.thematrixserver.com
The Matrix Sniper: 188.138.84.134:4576
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| Re: Map rating [message #458217 is a reply to message #458203] |
Fri, 21 October 2011 08:09 |
ehhh
Messages: 2098
Registered: December 2010
Location: UK
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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If someone's going to agree with azazel, it's going to be someone who plays renegade-sims.
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| Re: Map rating [message #458241 is a reply to message #458189] |
Fri, 21 October 2011 18:35 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| Aircraftkiller wrote on Thu, 20 October 2011 17:24 |
You're arguing that the game is balanced overall because certain units make others nearly worthless. Maybe "balance" means something else to you than it does to me. Perhaps you might like imagining a scale where Havoc and Sakura weigh the same amount as Buggies, Humm-vees, Orcas, Apaches, Transport Helicopters, all infantry, MRLS and Artillery. The fact that one type of unit can counter so many different things, with little fear of retaliation, is not balanced. I don't really give a shit about the win/loss ratios in this case.
/if your respect is so easily lost because I disagree with you on a slightly controversial subject, your respect is something I don't need
//slashies
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I actually agree, Renegade isn't "balanced" so much as it is "able to be played if you know what to do". It's like having an FPS where you have 100 weapon options, but only 2-3 are actually any good and can kill people instantaneously. It's not imbalanced in the eyes of players because anyone can choose those 2-3 weapons, but that's still arbitrary and retarded as hell.
MMORPG's suffer from this problem as well. Actually, a lot of modern games do, and it's saddening.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: Map rating [message #458242 is a reply to message #372303] |
Fri, 21 October 2011 19:01 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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This is something I've tried to rectify in Fjords, and I believe I've succeeded. It needs tweaking over time, as anything would, but it's laying the foundation for the Tiberium Garden project's gameplay standards.
I don't know about anyone else here, but I enjoy seeing Transport Helicopters make it to a base without being shredded by some gigantic cannon in less than five seconds. I like seeing rockets destroy Apaches, Orcas, and Transports. I like seeing Recon Bikes stave off Orcas, and MRLS holding Apaches at bay. I like watching Mammoth Tanks fire missiles at Apaches that don't manage to stay on top of them. I like seeing Stealth Tanks actually hit Orcas reliably.
I like seeing snipers focus entirely on light vehicles like Humm-vees, Recon Bikes, and Buggies. I like not having to worry about my Orca being destroyed in three seconds because someone across the map can kill me with hit-scan weapons without any fear of me coming close to them. I like that Gunner and Rocket Soldiers are useful in more than niche situations. I like seeing SAM Sites tear up aircraft, and I enjoy watching the AGT being focused on missiles while Guard Towers fire guns.
Maybe my problem is that I enjoy C&C, not this Unreal-styled version of C&C that we call Renegade.
[Updated on: Fri, 21 October 2011 19:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Map rating [message #458260 is a reply to message #372303] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 05:18 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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While I see why one would nerf things like Havocs and such, I think it wouldn't help much. Don't forget that you're paying 1000 credits for something that can be instantly killed with a 500 credits unit, and can be killed FAST by a vehicle.
If you look at the costs then any of the 1000 credits characters is a pretty bad choice compared to the vehicles available.
Edit:
Conclusion: if you're going to change the damage a unit does you should at the very least rebalance the costs aspect as well. Which basically means refactoring the entire reneconomy.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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[Updated on: Sat, 22 October 2011 05:20] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Map rating [message #458265 is a reply to message #372303] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 06:07 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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If you take in account how long it takes you to get 1.000 credits with the points fix, which was the way it was ment to be, then it's no wonder a character that costs 1.000 credits (which is more than any tank, bar the mammy) is quite good in what it aims to do.
Westwood could have been a bit more imaginative, and have another character counter the heli's, but the havoc works pretty fine wrt game balance.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Map rating [message #458274 is a reply to message #458268] |
Sat, 22 October 2011 09:06 |
ehhh
Messages: 2098
Registered: December 2010
Location: UK
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Damn it you need teamwork to counter a ramjet, It's not that difficult.
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