| Re: TT 4.0 FULL source code [message #455915 is a reply to message #455910] |
Sat, 24 September 2011 14:28   |
chat
Messages: 34
Registered: August 2006
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| Starbuzz wrote on Sat, 24 September 2011 14:20 |
| chat wrote on Sat, 24 September 2011 14:04 |
My point for asking why it was closed source is because having it closed source for the anti-cheat makes me think that the anti-cheat is just an obscure mess.
Really, a successful anti-cheat could be open-source but cheaters STILL couldn't figure a way to enable cheats. Even now when it's closed source, if the anti-cheat isn't good, cheaters will still be able to circumvent it.
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Does the 4.0 anti-cheat work or not? It fucking absolutely does. That's the end of the argument. No software is invulnerable. It will be many many months (hopefully never) before any strains of cheats start to appear in 4.0.
You want the critical dll's released (so you/anyone can edit it and make cheats faster) AND you want such an open-source system to be invulnerable too? 
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If anything, I'm not even asking for it to make cheats. I just want to edit the server a bit further.
A REAL anti-cheat system wouldn't even need to be on the client, the server would just check if they're cheating or not. Ideally, the only way to enable cheats is to host a custom server. But I'll just end the discussion here, because I probably won't be able to put a point across whatsoever.
That and the way CC Renegade was built, to allow the client to have authority over certain things that should only be server-side.
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| Re: TT 4.0 FULL source code [message #455918 is a reply to message #455915] |
Sat, 24 September 2011 14:31 |
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sla.ro(master)
Messages: 610
Registered: September 2010
Location: Romania
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| chat wrote on Sun, 25 September 2011 00:28 |
If anything, I'm not even asking for it to make cheats. I just want to edit the server a bit further.
A REAL anti-cheat system wouldn't even need to be on the client, the server would just check if they're cheating or not. Ideally, the only way to enable cheats is to host a custom server. But I'll just end the discussion here, because I probably won't be able to put a point across whatsoever.
That and the way CC Renegade was built, to allow the client to have authority over certain things that should only be server-side.
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u don't need tt.dll open source for editing server further..
VAC/Punkbuster/AnyType of anti-cheat is on both sides (server and client)
Creator of Mutant Co-Op
Developer of LuaTT
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| Re: TT 4.0 FULL source code [message #455919 is a reply to message #455917] |
Sat, 24 September 2011 14:33 |
chat
Messages: 34
Registered: August 2006
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| danpaul88 wrote on Sat, 24 September 2011 14:30 |
Good luck implementing a purely server side solution to check for client side textures and models etc... how would you detect the 'lol-beacon-with-giant-50ft-arrow-above-it' model via a purely server side check that has no access to the files on the clients installation? lol...
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I keep saying I'll end the discussion, but I keep lying. Either way, what you're doing is basically asking the client if they have any cheats installed or not, which isn't a very good idea to be honest. I suppose you should have partial client-side anti-cheat, but this will be the actual end of discussion, I promise.
[Updated on: Sat, 24 September 2011 14:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: TT 4.0 FULL source code [message #455921 is a reply to message #455847] |
Sat, 24 September 2011 14:39 |
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danpaul88
Messages: 5795
Registered: June 2004
Location: England
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General (5 Stars) |
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So, how exactly would you check CLIENT SIDE files on the SERVER without talking to the client? Seriously, post an implementation outline here that would do that and we will code it. Until you can, stop claiming anti-cheat can be implemented server side only and crawl back under your rock.
There's a reason you have to install a client side component to both VAC and PunkBuster. This is it.
[Updated on: Sat, 24 September 2011 14:41] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: TT 4.0 FULL source code [message #455924 is a reply to message #455847] |
Sat, 24 September 2011 14:59 |
StealthEye
Messages: 2518
Registered: May 2006
Location: The Netherlands
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General (2 Stars) |
 
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Security through obscurity is the highest possible level client-side anti-cheat can achieve. For the same reason, no software license manager is ever open source, and yes, a lot of software gets cracked anyway, but usually it takes a while depending on the amount of crackers interested in it and the level of obscurity.
To give you an idea of the anti-cheat, but not going in too much details for the same reasons:
Some things can be checked from the server side; those are mostly the things BIATCH already did, and which are now indeed included in TT. It is undesirable to release this source code because it means that cheaters can find the boundaries of what -is- possible much easier with the code, although it would not likely be such a big deal.
Another category are things that can theoretically be checked (or maybe only checked to some extent considering lag and such), but are too far off the Renegade netcode to develop. For example, other games run damage detection on the server with a lot of code and specially designed netcode to extrapolate client behavior and latency and such to make it work without noticing too much lag. Doing this in Renegade (try setting UseLagReduction=0 on a Renegade FDS) just makes the game unplayably laggy, and is not a possibility.
The final category are things you cannot detect on the server full stop. Think of visibility hacks (stealth reveal, radar hack and wall hack to some extent, amongst others). The server has to send this information to the client in order for the client to know where players are, so that they won't appear out of nowhere when you suddenly turn around or pass some corner. We can only block this on a best-effort basis: there is no guarantee that noone will break these measures. I am certain however that if we -would- release the code, it would be broken within days. Since we don't, the skills needed to bypass the anti-cheat is significantly increased (you definitely need quite some reverse engineering experience), and the list of possible cheat-makers becomes very short. And it is time-consuming even for those who can.
In the field of encryption, there are better solutions than security through obscurity. In those fields, it is therefore considered unnecessary to obscure and therefore frowned upon. In this case, security through obscurity isn't as bad as you think, since it's the best that can be achieved, and it's certainly better than nothing.  Renguard lasted quite a while based on the same principle, and we're hoping to get a similar result with TT.
BlackIntel admin/founder/coder
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
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| Re: TT 4.0 FULL source code [message #455978 is a reply to message #455847] |
Sun, 25 September 2011 07:42 |
chat
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Registered: August 2006
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Well, thanks for the extensive replies. I guess you're right, but it sucks that the source code for a module can't be released ONLY because of the anti-cheat code within.
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| Re: TT 4.0 FULL source code [message #455989 is a reply to message #455942] |
Sun, 25 September 2011 10:09 |
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Prulez
Messages: 439
Registered: August 2005
Location: The Netherlands
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| halo2pac wrote on Sun, 25 September 2011 04:16 |
There is a company out there that makes a cheat for combat arms, I know the maker. He spends every day sitting there and hacking it and releasing a new version every day ... while combat arms sits there and patches every day.
BOTH make in excess of 10k a month LOL.
So no hacker on fucking earth is going to sit here every day and hack TT.dll just to make a cheat for an old unpopular game where he is not going to make any money. Safe to say the only people who will have hacks are 0x09 and one of his friends... and he wont share because TT will patch the next day and all his efforts will be thwarted.
and I bet 0x09 has better hax to make for better games.
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You're stating here that everyone who hacks programs, creates cheats, and so on, is solely doing so because of the money.
Most of the time, it's because they are bored and as a hobby (and also to use their knowledge), they try to hack into a program/game.
| nikki6ixx wrote on Fri, 08 May 2009 19:47 |
Every so often, I get this positive feeling that humanity can somehow, possibly attain pure awesomeness, and enlightenment, and that there is light at the end of the road for us all. However, I only need to go to the latest HUD thread at RenForums to remind me of how dumb I was for thinking such stupid things.
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| Re: TT 4.0 FULL source code [message #456016 is a reply to message #455989] |
Sun, 25 September 2011 16:38 |
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NACHO-ARG
Messages: 397
Registered: October 2010
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| Prulez wrote on Sun, 25 September 2011 10:09 |
| halo2pac wrote on Sun, 25 September 2011 04:16 |
There is a company out there that makes a cheat for combat arms, I know the maker. He spends every day sitting there and hacking it and releasing a new version every day ... while combat arms sits there and patches every day.
BOTH make in excess of 10k a month LOL.
So no hacker on fucking earth is going to sit here every day and hack TT.dll just to make a cheat for an old unpopular game where he is not going to make any money. Safe to say the only people who will have hacks are 0x09 and one of his friends... and he wont share because TT will patch the next day and all his efforts will be thwarted.
and I bet 0x09 has better hax to make for better games.
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You're stating here that everyone who hacks programs, creates cheats, and so on, is solely doing so because of the money.
Most of the time, it's because they are bored and as a hobby (and also to use their knowledge), they try to hack into a program/game.
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agree, i dont think ppl whit this level of knoledge been retards, i think they just want a good chalenge to test his skills and as a hobbie too, sadlly his hobbie and skills could make a lot of ppl unhapy 
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| Re: TT 4.0 FULL source code [message #457418 is a reply to message #457414] |
Mon, 10 October 2011 06:47 |
Caveman
Messages: 2476
Registered: July 2005
Location: Wales, UK
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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@Chat -
What is it you're trying/planning to do with the source code that you're looking for?
| CarrierII wrote |
BLUEHTHEN YOU AR NOT JUST A BIG CHEATAS AND YOU THE BIG HEAD JUST YOU USE FLY H4X FUCK YOU BIG CHEATAS YOUR CHEATZ IS BAD YOU WANT I WRAUGHT THIS YOUR CHEATZ IS BAD HEY IS 1 YEAR YOUR PROMESS A FLY HAX IN MULTIPLAYER AND IS DONT JUST TROOPRM02 I TELL IT ALL WHO REPLYER IN THIS FORUM YOU CHEATZ
Please don't make me type something like that again, not using puntuation is annoying.
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