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| Re: Google [message #442749 is a reply to message #442734] |
Sat, 15 January 2011 23:29   |
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MUDKIPS
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Registered: August 2007
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| Dover wrote on Sat, 15 January 2011 19:33 |
I'm not sure which is sillier, the thought that I'm some kind of super-patriotic American or that someone needs Viagra for porn.
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That's not patriotism, that's apathy.
Let me just line it up carefully for you.
1. Europe has strict privacy laws, ergo, we as Europeans have a really strong sense of privacy, we don't want our personal information out there, for whatever reason whatsoever.
2. Europe also has strict advertising laws, ergo, we as Europeans don't have ad-riddled lives like people from America.
3. Last week the American government tried to pull personal information from a Dutch ISP founder, and an Icelandic member of parliament, who were thought to be involved with wikileaks. They tried to pull their information and promptly told to GTFO. (Although they did force twitter to give up some information)
4. It is found out that google stores private information not on their European servers, but on their American servers. This would circumvent the problem in point 3. quite nicely because.
5. America has a patriot act and Europe doesn't, because we, as said earlier, have a strong sense of privacy.
(6. Concerning the wikileaks matter, as it turns out, America is really fucking with a lot of countries, and when you do that, you shouldn't whine when people make that bullshit public. People that aren't even from America itself.)
2 Days ago they did a special on Dutch TV on the wikileaks documents concerning the Netherlands. Looking at how America has been fucking about with my country, I really don't want any single piece of my personal information in their hands whatsoever.
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| Re: Google [message #442757 is a reply to message #442508] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 00:57 |
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Dover
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So call it what it is, the prevalence of American culture. Not some kind of new world Fascist order or any other the other nonsense you're trying to paint this as. Notice how the only people being harmed in this situation are the guys involved with the wikileaks nonsense, who really brought it on their own head.
Think about it for a minute. Regardless of how you or I feel about the whole wikileaks debacle, are you really surprised that there are people out there trying to pull his information?
Really, this entire thread boils down to your points 1 and 2. "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life is wrong and ours is right".
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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[Updated on: Sun, 16 January 2011 00:59] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Google [message #442769 is a reply to message #442508] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 04:45 |
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Spyder
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What the fuck is wrong with you people! You start complaining about Google collecting userdata being privacy infringement, but you keep on posting all your personal details and whatnot on sites such as Facebook, MySpace, Hyves, Twitter and I don't know what's all out there. It's not the websites infringing your privacy, it's you destroying your own private life by publishing it on the internet.
PEOPLE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR TWEET SAYING THAT YOU WERE TAKING A CRAP AND THE BIG TURD LOOKED JUST LIKE THE FOOD YOU ATE THE OTHER DAY!
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| Re: Google [message #442820 is a reply to message #442757] |
Sun, 16 January 2011 21:17 |
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nikki6ixx
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| Dover wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 01:57 |
So call it what it is, the prevalence of American culture. Not some kind of new world Fascist order or any other the other nonsense you're trying to paint this as. Notice how the only people being harmed in this situation are the guys involved with the wikileaks nonsense, who really brought it on their own head.
Think about it for a minute. Regardless of how you or I feel about the whole wikileaks debacle, are you really surprised that there are people out there trying to pull his information?
Really, this entire thread boils down to your points 1 and 2. "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life is wrong and ours is right".
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I think the beef about Google storing their European information on American servers is legitimate, as their laws are different.
However, while I understand the concern, everyone here has to realize that people are putting their information, and allowing these account links on their own accord.
Europe has these laws because the EU is a nanny-"supra-national" state, that feels the need to hold people's hands.In the US, if an individual chooses to not read the Terms of Service, chooses to forfeit their privacy, and chooses to ignore any associated privacy concerns, that's entirely of their own choosing.
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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[Updated on: Sun, 16 January 2011 21:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Google [message #442846 is a reply to message #442757] |
Mon, 17 January 2011 08:25 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| Dover wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 08:57 |
So call it what it is, the prevalence of American culture. Not some kind of new world Fascist order or any other the other nonsense you're trying to paint this as. Notice how the only people being harmed in this situation are the guys involved with the wikileaks nonsense, who really brought it on their own head.
Think about it for a minute. Regardless of how you or I feel about the whole wikileaks debacle, are you really surprised that there are people out there trying to pull his information?
Really, this entire thread boils down to your points 1 and 2. "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life is wrong and ours is right".
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No it boils down to: "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life should not be forced upon us by sneaky actions taken by private companies". That you don't care about privacy is no problem for me, I'm explaining why I'm pro-privacy. You come up with ridicules twisting of words implying that I said Nazi's will take over Google. I'm trying to sketch why privacy *MIGHT BE* important.
Now who is forcing his opinion on others? I think in this case it's Google trying to circumvent EU-law while still reaping the benefits of the EU (Double dutch sandwich, among other things); I don't see what's weird with warning other people of this.
Whether you need that warning or not is up to you, albeit, with you living in the USA, you have no choice anyway.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: Google [message #442848 is a reply to message #442820] |
Mon, 17 January 2011 08:38 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| nikki6ixx wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 05:17 |
| Dover wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 01:57 |
So call it what it is, the prevalence of American culture. Not some kind of new world Fascist order or any other the other nonsense you're trying to paint this as. Notice how the only people being harmed in this situation are the guys involved with the wikileaks nonsense, who really brought it on their own head.
Think about it for a minute. Regardless of how you or I feel about the whole wikileaks debacle, are you really surprised that there are people out there trying to pull his information?
Really, this entire thread boils down to your points 1 and 2. "We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life is wrong and ours is right".
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I think the beef about Google storing their European information on American servers is legitimate, as their laws are different.
However, while I understand the concern, everyone here has to realize that people are putting their information, and allowing these account links on their own accord.
Europe has these laws because the EU is a nanny-"supra-national" state, that feels the need to hold people's hands.In the US, if an individual chooses to not read the Terms of Service, chooses to forfeit their privacy, and chooses to ignore any associated privacy concerns, that's entirely of their own choosing.
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While I know it's different for the USA, one should understand this is because we, Europeans choose it to be like that. It could be called rude of Google to decide for us that we don't want that, don't you think? Imagen it would be the other way around, what would you think about that? Would you agree with a multinational originating from the EU trying to circumvent certain laws you have in your country?
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: Google [message #442855 is a reply to message #442848] |
Mon, 17 January 2011 11:40 |
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nikki6ixx
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 09:38 |
While I know it's different for the USA, one should understand this is because we, Europeans choose it to be like that. It could be called rude of Google to decide for us that we don't want that, don't you think? Imagen it would be the other way around, what would you think about that? Would you agree with a multinational originating from the EU trying to circumvent certain laws you have in your country?
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Oh, I agree with you. That's why I said in my first sentence that anyone in Europe should be concerned about this. If I were European, I'd be concerned.
But this is likely just a wake-up call. The EU and Canada are entering a free-trade agreement, which will then give the EU free access to the United States through NAFTA. Expect more of this, as European companies move or expand their operations here.
Renegade:
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Fri, 10 January 2014 16:56 |
The only game where everyone competes to be an e-janitor.
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| Re: Google [message #442860 is a reply to message #442508] |
Mon, 17 January 2011 12:11 |
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jnz
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Why would audience targeted advertising be something to worry about? If you don't do anything illegal - or post evidence of you doing anything illegal or slagging off your boss etc on the internet then I don't see what you have to worry about.
If google sold, mislaid, gave or someone else managed to get your personal information, then google is, in most countries, liable for prosecution and liable for damages caused. Surfing habits would probably not hold up as personal information, and besides, who the hell is dumb enough to click the sponsored ads anyway?
So, in my honest opinion, I don't give a shit.
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| Re: Google [message #442920 is a reply to message #442870] |
Tue, 18 January 2011 05:56 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 22:57 |
The people that are worried about this are the paranoid people that think the government has their eyes and ears everywhere. They are concerned that if Google is collecting this information from it's users then the government is a peek away from spying on it's citizens.
That's what the concern is. And there isn't any justification for it. It's all just a big conspiracy theory.
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Well, if I would say that, I would probably right. The Dutch government has the most phonetaps. (Sorry MUDKIPS)
The US government oes indeed want to have eyes and ears everywhere. It wouldn't be the first time a big EU company didn't get a contract due to US goverment officials spying on EU companies, so the USA companies can bid lower (Airbus-Boeing)
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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[Updated on: Tue, 18 January 2011 05:58] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Google [message #445355 is a reply to message #442671] |
Sun, 27 March 2011 21:16 |
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Aircraftkiller
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Registered: February 2003
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Edit: oh and just for reference:
I can identify 7 items that are not unknown to some of today's "civilized" western countries.
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I like how the bottom portion of that is clearly edited in Photoshop.
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We're Europeans, so our way of life is different from those in America, therefore their way of life should not be forced upon us
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Looking at how America has been fucking about with my country
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Did you guys ever get to paying us back for the tremendous amount of aid we gave you to rebuild your countries after the Nazis destroyed them in WWII? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate\crow superiority just as fast.
/We're not "America", we're the United States of America; properly abbreviated US or USA
//The Americas are a geographic region, not a country
[Updated on: Sun, 27 March 2011 21:24] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Google [message #445359 is a reply to message #442508] |
Sun, 27 March 2011 23:32 |
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Aircraftkiller
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Okay, even said; that really doesn't apply at all. Here's why:
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"Powerful and continuing nationalism"
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There is too much dissent and apathy on this subject for it to be remotely relevant. Most US citizens don't care about their country beyond what it can give them for free.
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"Disdain for human rights"
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That's why we're one of the countries that routinely tortures and kills its own citizens for protesting the government, and why social services are non-existent. We also don't provide any type of free medical services. We're pretty much the United Syria of America.
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"Identification of enemies as a unifying cause"
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This applies to many countries, not just us. I fail to see the reasoning here. It's easier to get the populace behind an idea than it is to get them behind a set of ideas that describe a variety of situations and people.
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"Supremacy of the military"
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The military answers to the people, not vice versa. Only in rare exceptions does this not apply, e.g. Area 51 and other top-secret bases.
Like Europe is enlightened on that subject? You people are practically where this shit started.
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"Controlled mass media"
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By whom? Businessmen? That's new!
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"Obsession with national security"
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I'd wager that less than half of our populace gives a thought to national security on a weekly, if not monthly basis. There are other things people care about more, such as: food, fucking, sleeping, etc.
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"Religion and government intertwined"
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See: ACLU; also see: judicial activism against religion in government.
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"Corporate power protected"
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By what? Congress? Osamabama? Corporations get a lot of free rides but they aren't "protected" by any means. See: AT&T, Microsoft, etc.
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"Labor power suppressed"
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Suppressing themselves? Sure. We'll do that. Ask General Motors what they think of labor power and you'll get an idea of why labor, at least in the automotive sector, is suppressed. Fuckwits nearly destroyed their respective industry.
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"Disdain for the intellectual and the arts"
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Plenty of "intellectuals" have issues with other "intellectuals" and the "arts". Whose definition are we going with here? Some obscure image whose definition of "intellectual" and "arts" is nebulous at best?
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"Obsession with crime and punishment"
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Well, yeah. Don't do that shit if you don't want to go to jail.
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"Rampant cronyism and corruption"
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Found in any government. Tada!
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"Fraudulent elections"
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Are we referring to the attempt of Al Gore to steal the election from G.W. Bush by excessively litigating over "hanging chads" and "voter intent" based on said chads, dimples, etc in voting cards? Or are we referring to the rampant ignorance of the US population (and the world, it seems) on how the government's elections have worked for the past 200 years and more?
The image is propaganda. Nothing to see here.
/Bolded for her pleasure
//This belongs in the politics forum
///Slashies
[Updated on: Sun, 27 March 2011 23:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Google [message #445360 is a reply to message #442508] |
Sun, 27 March 2011 23:45 |
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Goztow
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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The Marshall plan had as main objective to rebuild a lucrative offset market for American companies.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Google [message #445362 is a reply to message #445359] |
Mon, 28 March 2011 00:58 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
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| Aircraftkiller wrote on Mon, 28 March 2011 08:32 |
Okay, even said; that really doesn't apply at all. Here's why:
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"Powerful and continuing nationalism"
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There is too much dissent and apathy on this subject for it to be remotely relevant. Most US citizens don't care about their country beyond what it can give them for free.
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Well, in my opinion the forced national anthem every day?/week? at primary schools is a form of nationalism. There are other things as well, but I can't find the proper words for them right now. Will come back on it once I find them.
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"Disdain for human rights"
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That's why we're one of the countries that routinely tortures and kills its own citizens for protesting the government, and why social services are non-existent. We also don't provide any type of free medical services. We're pretty much the United Syria of America.
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Well, it's true that you're not torturing your OWN citizen. You collect them in another part of the world, abducts them to wherever (could be Guantanamo bay, or some other secret CIA prison) and then torture them. That makes it entirely alright. Oh and you also are one of the 27 countries in the world that still apply the death penalty, some invention I would not call the prime example of civilization.
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"Identification of enemies as a unifying cause"
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This applies to many countries, not just us. I fail to see the reasoning here. It's easier to get the populace behind an idea than it is to get them behind a set of ideas that describe a variety of situations and people.
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It's true that it applies to a lot of countries, but that doesn't mean it's not a sign of fascism. Let's face it, there are more non-democratic countries in the world that democratic countries. In the case of the USA, it is terrorism.
While I agree terrorism is a problem in the world, I also believe that terrorism can only prevail when your average citizen is afraid of terrorism. I know it's possible to get injured or get killed by a bomb or w/e, but I also know that it's a lot more likely that I get killed in a car accident (even though statistics say that the Netherlands is one of the safest countries regarding traffic!)
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"Supremacy of the military"
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The military answers to the people, not vice versa. Only in rare exceptions does this not apply, e.g. Area 51 and other top-secret bases.
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I think you're taking this one a little to literal, glorifying the military would also count as far as I can tell.
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Like Europe is enlightened on that subject? You people are practically where this shit started.
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I'm unsure what you mean here? Also I do not see how this applies to either Europe or the USA in current times. Yes, the USA could be considered more prude than the EU, but I don't think that's relevant here.
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"Controlled mass media"
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By whom? Businessmen? That's new!
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Well, the point one can make here is that "the news" claims to be independent. It's questionable how for ex. different TV stations, that are owned by the same businessman, will provide you with different news. It is rather plausible that the political preference of the businessman is to some extend reflected in the news.
It's also known that in order for journalists to go into Iraq during the war, they could choose, either they got censored by the army and could hitch a ride, or they would not get any protection at all. Not even the guarantee they wouldn't get shot by USA soldiers.
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"Obsession with national security"
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I'd wager that less than half of our populace gives a thought to national security on a weekly, if not monthly basis. There are other things people care about more, such as: food, fucking, sleeping, etc.
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It's on a national level, not the level of your average citizen. Politicians don't have to worry about your food on a weekly or even monthly basis now do they?
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"Religion and government intertwined"
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See: ACLU; also see: judicial activism against religion in government.
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Never said that all of them where true for the USA. Although I personally feel that there is a lot of Christianity influence in the US culture, even to an extend where politicians that do not believe in God could have serious issues with the people. However, I think this one cannot be (easily) applied to the USA today.
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"Corporate power protected"
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By what? Congress? Osamabama? Corporations get a lot of free rides but they aren't "protected" by any means. See: AT&T, Microsoft, etc.
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You name an interesting one there, with Microsoft. Bush used his powers to prevent MS having to split into multiple corporations.
Also, it is widely known how much power lobby groups have in the USA. While this is not strictly a bad thing, it does make it hard for the government to apply needed business rules. The creditcrisis shows that there is need for outside regulation in some markets.
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"Labor power suppressed"
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Suppressing themselves? Sure. We'll do that. Ask General Motors what they think of labor power and you'll get an idea of why labor, at least in the automotive sector, is suppressed. Fuckwits nearly destroyed their respective industry.
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I'm not sure what you're referring to?
Might give me new insights in how it is or is not suppressed.
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"Disdain for the intellectual and the arts"
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Plenty of "intellectuals" have issues with other "intellectuals" and the "arts". Whose definition are we going with here? Some obscure image whose definition of "intellectual" and "arts" is nebulous at best?
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Again, not all have to apply.
And although I do not know enough about the USA to judge this point, I do know that in my own country, currently, there is a change going on. A change that influences a lot of artist and a change which makes the politician not responding to scientific reports and proof, but what they believe it is. Populism would be the word I think.
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"Obsession with crime and punishment"
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Well, yeah. Don't do that shit if you don't want to go to jail.
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Well, I find that to be a little shortsighted. Let me explain with two examples.
1) I steal a watch from a jewelery store. This should obviously be punished right?
2) I steal a bread from Walmart because my family doesn't have anything to eat. While obviously it's wrong to steal, but in this case one should IMHO receive a lot less punishment.
Punishment should be there to primarily influence the criminal to not do bad things again. It is proven that it is more effective to have a high catch rate than to have long prison terms. Which, I think, makes sense. If you know that you're say 80% sure that you'll get caught, it is likely not to be worth the risk. If you know that you'll get a life sentence but the chance of getting caught is <0.0001% it might prove profitable.
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"Rampant cronyism and corruption"
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Found in any government. Tada!
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Deflecting, that somebody else is wrong as well doesn't make it right for either of them. Again, example: if my neighbor robs a bank, it's still not ok for me to rob a bank, right?
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"Fraudulent elections"
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Are we referring to the attempt of Al Gore to steal the election from G.W. Bush by excessively litigating over "hanging chads" and "voter intent" based on said chads, dimples, etc in voting cards? Or are we referring to the rampant ignorance of the US population (and the world, it seems) on how the government's elections have worked for the past 200 years and more?
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Well, if after the recount Al Gore did win, then how is that not a "sort of" fraudulent election? In any way it did not go as it should in a democratic society, where the majority counts. In this case, Bush became and stayed president because the recount was done after the was inaugurated.
It is indeed questionable that this was done on purpose, but still basic democratic values where not met.
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The image is propaganda. Nothing to see here.
/Bolded for her pleasure
//This belongs in the politics forum
///Slashies
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If this image is propaganda, then for whom is it propaganda? If it is propaganda it can only be propaganda AGAINST FASCISM, something only few of us will find to be pity I would say? I know I'm happy to live in a free part of the world. I also know that for it to continue to be free, we have to guard our values, what we stand for.
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: Google [message #445363 is a reply to message #445355] |
Mon, 28 March 2011 01:07 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| Aircraftkiller wrote on Mon, 28 March 2011 06:16 |
[...]
Did you guys ever get to paying us back for the tremendous amount of aid we gave you to rebuild your countries after the Nazis destroyed them in WWII? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate\crow superiority just as fast.
/We're not "America", we're the United States of America; properly abbreviated US or USA
//The Americas are a geographic region, not a country
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Aid from which the USA has benefited a lot, learn your economics. The USA needed a market for their products, and with Europe being devastated from the war, they found it.
Not that I'm not grateful for what the USA did back then, I certainly am. Hell, I'm currently, in this thread, fighting against the same thing as the Allied soldiers did back then. Fighting against Fascism. It's not relevant who does it or tries to do it, it just should be prevented. Therefore it's a good thing to discuss why some things can be considered signs of fascism and what the dangers of them are. It gains awareness, something we need with all the current threads to democracy and personal freedom. Corporate/national freedom is something different than personal freedom
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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| Re: Google [message #445367 is a reply to message #445365] |
Mon, 28 March 2011 05:09 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
Messages: 3751
Registered: October 2005
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars) |
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| MUDKIPS wrote on Mon, 28 March 2011 12:54 |
| Aircraftkiller wrote on Sun, 27 March 2011 21:16 |
Did you guys ever get to paying us back for the tremendous amount of aid we gave you to rebuild your countries after the Nazis destroyed them in WWII? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate\crow superiority just as fast.
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Do you guys ever get to paying us back for founding you with the tremendous amount of resources we invested in your empty country? I'm just curious. Seems like people forget quickly and hate/crow superiority just as fast.
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Good point, without the Dutch New York wouldn't even be there. Do you still need to be grateful for that? Or can we call it even after WW2? Hell, if Europe would've lost the war, I would've been German. Would I have mind then? Probably not, got all the right exterior feats, so not much chance of me disappearing or anything so no problem there, at least, not for me. Germany had a great economy going at the time as well, so that wouldn't have been much of an issue either. So, I though the USA was so capitalistic and focused on the individuality of people. This would mean that we would have to calculate how much I personally benefited from your grandfathers and mothers sacrifice. So, how are we going to settle this?
Or, perhaps, we should not focus on the past but the future.
I dare to say I memorize the losses of lives during WW2 more than you do anyway. I visit wargrayards and visit/watch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_of_the_Dead more than once a year.
Edit: Oh and now we're thanking the USA, I guess I thank you for the opportunity to rebuild the entire city center of Arnhem and Nijmegen as well. We couldn't have done it without you guys  .
BlackIntel admin/founder/PR dude (not a coder)
Please visit http://www.blackintel.org/
| V, V for Vendetta |
People should not be afraid of their governments.
Governments should be afraid of their people.
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[Updated on: Mon, 28 March 2011 05:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Google [message #445371 is a reply to message #445370] |
Mon, 28 March 2011 11:37 |
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LR01
Messages: 842
Registered: April 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Wait, did someone just stated there isn't Powerful nationalism in the USA??
Moding can be real Fun...
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