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i don't know why not. if you can understand why you - for example - didn't host a pointbugged ladder for everybody who wanted one, it isn't such a big step to realising that someone else might not want to either, especially when that someone has always been the most vocal opponent of the point bug.

you assume i didn't want to because i can't be bothered or wouldn't lower myself to paying or running anything for renegade
not saying i did, but what if i really liked the idea, but didn't do it because i felt it would be pointless trying to make a ladder for renegade that spoony did not endorse? i think it's possible other people felt the same way

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of course, on that basis you might think that i deserve some credit for hosting a pointbugged ladder for such a long time despite my contempt for the bug, but no. no thanks are due there, only being called a "douche" when the problem is finally fixable.

now you finally understand!
i guess my thinking is skewed
i figure that since you're the only person that can really run a renegade ladder (whether you'll openly admit this or not) you would do

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you've lost me there.

how would allowing soul to play have nearly jeopardized the ren league at cw.cc? the uproar was caused by him being banned
you acted correctly but that nearly resulted in clanwars.cc cutting Renegade off of their site

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the fact that you have no credibility at all in criticising the way clanwars was run, because nobody else could be bothered running a clan ladder at all.

i'm not so sure it's that they couldn't be bothered
i think people realize that you do a better job than they actually could (minus a select few people like trooprm02 - i've read clanwars.cc a handful of times and each time he was trying to tell you why you suck at what you're doing and how he could do better) and figured there was no point in trying
like i've said Spoony is clanwars.cc; people do not believe clanwars can succeed without you at this point
and because i didn't run a clan ladder for renegade means i have no credibility on the subject? i'm not saying i do have credibility on the subject, but that thinking is flawed
you should not criticize politicians or what they do because you've never been one yourself - you have no credibility on the subject

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i'd rather be rude than a bald-faced liar, liquid. why do you keep ignoring what i say and then deliberately pretending i said things i absolutely did not say? i'd respect you more if you just admitted you lost the argument instead of trying to lie your way out of it.

i have facial hair
sorry
it looks to me that you're insinuating things about people but when i mention it or point it out you call me a liar
it's a trap
here's what i got from what you were saying: "these people want me to change my ladder but aren't willing to go make their own community to have the proposed changes to my ladder - that makes them douchebags"
i also got this: "these people want me to change what i'm doing to cater to their wants instead of thanking me for hosting it - that makes them douchebags"
am i incorrect in saying this?

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and there you go again. why do you keep lying? when did i say "everything i say is a fact"? why are you lying by claiming i said or think this?

i didn't say that you said "everything you say is a fact"
you're lying in saying i said that...stop lying you big liar
in the past other people have made claims and you dismissed them, but when you made claims you treated them as fact
i noticed it in religious debates but didn't think i'd have to pinpoint and save it
one time i remember is when you accused MSGTPain of hating you due to you catching his friends cheating in a community war, and when i asked if you had proof of that you never responded
i never said this, i'm just asking you if it's something you believe to be true, because from watching it's a question i had myself

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i suppose i'm glad to hear you would agree with me if only you were perceptive enough to see what's right in front of you.

it seems to me you've decided that clanwars.cc is entirely represented by simpee and orca
one "couldn't be bothered" to host a league whereas the other "wouldn't lower himself to that"
i don't believe that all of clanwars.cc can be described by either of these two players
how do you know simpee was telling the truth? it's possible he would have liked to but felt it would not work and didn't want to get flak for it

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eh? one of the main reasons i hosted the clanwars ladder is because no fucker else on renegade could be bothered.

well that was very kind of you
didn't people host it before yourself? perhaps someone else would have had you not stepped in
you must have done a good job because after you came along no one else really wanted to try
perhaps they thought they could not do a better job than you do or did and that their efforts would be pointless
you said yourself that clanwars.cc died because you stopped playing - perhaps there's some validity to my words

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there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. no rebuttal necessary, the quote speaks for itself.

it's a simple question - you claimed that banning soul almost killed renegade at cw.cc
i don't disagree with you banning him for breaking a rule but i simply raised a question - do you think the uproar may have been averted had you just let it go and made everyone else happy?
alright, you later covered this, but would it have gotten clanwars.cc off your back? even if it was for entirely wrong reasons?

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oh dear, you completely changed the subject.

nope, i didn't at all change the subject
i understand that in your eyes the only people that didn't want the pointmod used in clanwars were the only people that posted in that topic, which you named
i believe that may be untrue

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translation: you blindly swallowed what a small number of cheaters and compulsive liars told you, despite the fact that at the time i was carefully pointing out the simple truth of the matter

i don't think i thought either way on it, i simply understood why what you said could have been true and why their concerns and thoughts could have been true
i still don't know what whiskey thought either way, even if he told you he wanted it used
maybe he didn't and wanted to please you
i don't think it matters much either way whether he did or not, just saying

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who gives a shit whether anybody "enjoys" debates? if you want a rule changed, explain why. if you can't, don't expect it to be changed. who cares whether you enjoy trying to explain why?

that's a nice way of putting it
a lot of people don't like posting things if they know they're going to get criticized for it, so perhaps they saw simpee and the others trying to tell you why they wanted the original points used and the way you tried to tell them their opinions were wrong and decided against posting at all
though since you only care about debate in determining how clanwars.cc is run it wouldn't have mattered either way to you

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the "if i ran a league" is the critical bit. if you gave enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, here's how you'd run it! well, i suppose we have to take you at your word, such as it is, because you didn't give enough of a shit about clan gaming to host a league, though you've got plenty of criticism to aim at the only person who DID host one because it wasn't exactly as you wanted it to be.

i just have a hard time understanding why you do what you do, that's all
am i not allowed to ask you why you do what you do in regards to running a clan league or tell you why i think it makes no sense because i don't or haven't run one myself? i don't agree with that thinking, and i covered it earlier

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your parents must have had a hell of time

i was raised by wolves
hurp durp

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as would anyone who could be bothered hosting a pointbugged ladder when, according to you, everyone except me and whiskey wanted one.

i think if people were asked who the best person to host a pointbugged ladder in ren would be it would be you
maybe that's why they wanted you to do it so badly

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what a pity that not a single person on the planet could, so instead you direct your anger at the only person who hosts a league and the only person who helps him run it.

what makes you think i'm mad? lol
i don't think that anyone else could have successfully run an original points ladder, especially while you were running your own ladder
i'm sure i'm not the only one that thinks that either

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if you can't see how phenomenally stupid you are being here, i just don't know how many more times i need to repeat it.

forgive me, i can be slow

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because they're a bunch of idiots? that's the short answer.

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you're almost on to something here. you don't run a clanwars league for these people so you don't know? indeed. so you know what it's like to not host a league for a bunch of idiots... so you ought to understand what might drive someone else to decide not to as well.

fair enough, there are quite a few reasons i can come up with for why more people haven't tried

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why didn't you read my detailed and repeated explanations of why i wouldn't play him at the time?

didn't you cite that the vehicle alignment issue was the main reason? and that the map wasn't complete without it? if there was more to it please fill me in
it just looked to me like you were avoiding it, and i didn't think the vehicle alignment issue would have changed the outcome of the game

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again, i'll just leave this quote to stand on its own, it says a lot more than you meant it to

i posed the question above in regards to the Soul situation
not that it matters either way!
i was just questioning whether your way of conducting business at cw.cc was always best done by discussion, though you did a good job covering it

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you seem reluctant to finish your sentence. the last words that belong on the end are "but they were wrong"

i didn't think i had to say that, the fact that they couldn't argue it says just that
even though the pointmod makes the game much more fair people still didn't want it used

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it might be the same thing you thought you would lose by hosting a pointbugged clan ladder for them?

which is what?

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the fact you don't give enough of a shit about the clan world to host a league at all is enough to demonstrate you wouldn't be a good admin, we don't need much more evidence than that. we don't even need to notice your contempt for the only person who actually did and the renadmin at the time, though that helps form the picture too.

you have an idea of what you're doing and it worked in the past
i have a hard time understanding it, that's all

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nobody said they were, though you lied and tried to make it sound like i did.

you made a point to say that polls were rigged in clanwars multiple times after you mentioned the poll about wanting the pointmod in clanwars
what i inferred was you were suggesting this one had been rigged as well
what i said several times was that just because others in the past had been rigged that this one wasn't necessarily rigged
if you never said that it had been rigged then what's the big deal? i don't recall you saying it, but i did respond thinking that's what you had meant

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or you were just overly focused on the small group of cheaters and pointpushers

perhaps!

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i can't tell if that's a serious question or not

just because whiskey was the only person who always stood by your side and listened to you does not mean no one else cared or "gave a shit" about clanwars

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is there anything praiseworthy here?

who said anything about delivering praise? i'm just explaining why i think more people "gave a shit" about clanwars than you think
maybe you should tell me exactly what you mean when you say "gave a shit"

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never mind them, we're talking about the enormous number of people who never tried at all, for whom you're very quick to make excuses.

they would fall into your "come back with excuses" category

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would that explain the general enthusiasm when i was suspended because a cheater lied his way into my clan?

who said they have to like you? you probably made them feel stupid at one point or another
you've said several times that they're idiots, so is it farfetched to say they may not have liked you much
despite them disliking you they stuck around, which you've attributed to them being too lazy to make their own league

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still, carry on making excuses for these people if you like. the fact remains that none of them came up with the goods, and you attacked the only person who did.

what if no one else was capable? if you're the only one that can honestly do it then what? i can't see anyone else running a clan league for renegade

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having a debate thread at all is more generous than they have a reason to expect; i could just say "here's spoony's decision the madder, live with it" and lock the thread, as i was advised by quite a few people to do instead of actually talking to these idiots.

why do that though? that would be no fun for you

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i've been asked the same question before, but in a more threatening tone.

alright, but that doesn't answer the question
would you be content with your decision even if it emptied out your community?
it doesn't seem to bother you that right now renegade at clanwars.cc sits nearly empty so "no" seems a plausible answer to me

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no? that was the first time you seemed to acknowledge the fact that the anti-pointsfix crowd at clanwars had been caught rigging polls like that before, despite the innumerable times i kept pointing it out to you and you obviously didn't care.

no - i believed you on that, without actually having seen it myself, but you mentioned it numerous times after mentioning that specific poll
it looked to me like you were saying that that poll had been rigged, and that's why several times i've stated that i don't believe that because other polls were rigged in the past that that poll had been rigged
you never actually said it, but again it appeared you were clearly hinting at it

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i suspect this is wilful dishonesty on your part rather than simple stupidity. i didn't say you have to crafted a beautifully worded essay, i just said you had to actually be right.

hmm
no, stick with simple stupidity
in the case of the pointmod what was the point? if you made a topic where people were supposed to prove why it's more fair when you already know it's unfair you're just lying a trap out with the intention of slapping people around
was your topic made to ask whether people wanted to use the pointmod or whether people thought it was more fair?

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this one seems more like simple stupidity than wilful dishonesty. i can only advise you to actually read and understand what i say before replying to it.

easier said than done
you're severely british, and my brain is odd
as a result things get misunderstood

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i know you don't, because it logically makes you much more of a douche than i could ever be, and given the sheer number of times you've called me a douche for this reason it would make you the most colossal douche in the world.

pfft
if the reason no one else has tried to make a clan ladder, over the pointmod issue or any other issue, was solely due to people "not giving a shit" then i would have no problem agreeing with you
i'm not so sure that's the case

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from you and from the people you were so enthusiastically defending, it was absolutely true.

that's probably true, and i don't know enough to prove it otherwise
for the record i honestly think it's great that you hosted a league for renegade throughout the years, even if you've never gotten that from me

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no. but your standards for meeting the label "douche" are much lower than mine; they apply to someone who's going to great lengths to do you a favour if that favour isn't exactly the way you'd like it.

correct

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i see you've already forgotten about the whole "CLAN WARS would have shut the league down" bit, maybe because - as i said several times before - it's not something you are at all bothered by. at one point shortbus (global admin) said that blkst0rm and i were the only good things about the renegade community (he was specifically talking about the clanwars section, before anybody here objects), precisely because we were actually going by rules and fairness and honesty instead of caving in to a bunch of idiots. that's one thing we could have lost - the entire league. aside from that, what a great precedent to set. "here's a situation where you can get away with pointpushing and photoshopping screenshots for fake wins, guys". tell me, do you think that would lead to more cheating or less? but maybe you don't care about rules being applied fairly, maybe you think punishments should not be decided by what your offence was but how many people like you instead. well, i don't give a shit about pleasing people, i'd rather be honest. so under your system, me - maybe the fairest and most honest player you could find - would come off much worse than someone with such a colourful history of cheating and pointpushing and lying to everyone about it (the admins, his opponents, his own clan). i suppose if you could give enough of a shit to actually run a clan league, this is what it might look like. what could i lose? dignity, for one thing. ever heard of it? where there is a question of cheating or fairplay or honesty, you will always find me on the right side. there are quite a lot of people in the renegade community for whom this can't be said.

well said

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"dismissing all of them because you disagree with it" is a dishonest way to phrase it. it's not as bad as "didn't listen to them", which was an outright lie you should be ashamed of yourself for saying as often as you did, but it's still dishonest. "dismissing them because you disagreed with them", no. i read everything they said and replied to them all. shame they were all WRONG. perhaps you don't like to think that anybody's opinion could actually be WRONG, liquid.

that's an interesting question
i like to think that if people have opinions on things that they should at least be able to back them up, and i back up what i say
if i'm proven wrong i'll admit it, i'm not a dishonest person (at least not intentionally)
what i was trying to get at is that since you felt their opinions were not valid (or as you say WRONG) that they do not matter
once again it's my way of thinking not understanding yours, which would make me a bad clanwars admin

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yes, it was. not everyone is as bad as robo or simpee.

i still think of zell as a good person!

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i don't remember saying i EXPECTED anyone from clanwars to behave maturely?

you didn't say it, i just assumed it's what you meant and addressed it as such
if it's not then don't worry about it
but did you expect it? more or less?

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it was obvious they didn't think i'd have such an easy time proving they were lying.

yet they still put it out there
perhaps it was what they honestly thought and you set the record straight for them - if so then that's good, right?