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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #428186 is a reply to message #428151] Thu, 13 May 2010 06:01 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Spoony is currently offline  Spoony
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Altzan wrote on Thu, 13 May 2010 00:58

Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

secondly, if the bible was accurate then god is not the right leader. he's the most vicious, merciless and unjust character ever created.


Hey, look. Another hyperbole.
It's easy to make such a claim when you only look at the negative sides.

the negative sides of the biblical god are very negative indeed.

and it's not hyperbole. i'm not aware of a character, fictional or historical, more evil than the god of the bible.

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

just want to make sure i heard you right. the worst crimes according to the bible (which tend not to be the worst crimes accordig to modern society)... you think we should just let people get away with them?


Obviously you didn't hear me right.
God's not going to fry them with a lightning bolt today for those crimes. That doesn't mean we shouldn't punish them wuth the laws of our land.

so who's really sorting the world out? Sarcasm

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

secondly, how do you know god does not want you to set his commandments as the laws of the land?


Because he state in the NT that we should obey the laws of our land, provided they were just.

Oh, really? Your god says it's ok to opt-out of a legal system if it's morally shit?

Excellent.

I'm sure you can guess where I'm going with this.

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

thirdly, isn't god a bit of a prick for making his revelation so unclear?
even though the majority of humanity think "faith" is a good thing (our greatest weakness, in my view, but i'm hopeful that we can overcome it), the vast majority of people do not think your bible is true. (muslims may think it's true but not the prevailing law)


Heck, people were disbelieving in him and rallying against him even when he was active and leading.
That's man's fault if they don't want to believe what's happening in front of their own eyes.

...if these people were alive and saw what god was doing, i expect they'd have even more contempt for him than i do for the fictional account of him.

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

your entire line of reasoning was based on taking "everything is either mind or matter" as a known fact, which it plainly isn't.


I still have yet to hear why. What can only be categorized in a third?

sigh... i didn't say there was a third option, i said it's bullshit to say these are the only two options.

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

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You're missing the point. The idea of my statement being fatuous is an opinion, so I naturally pointed out that you spoke of it as a fact.

don't think i did. i think a bigger problem would be talking about religions as if they're facts.


I just read Starbuzzz's post and it's full of crap like this, only it's an "atheists are right" view.
So that kind of talk is only bad when theists use it?

you can talk that way if you like.

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

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including the ones god absolutely despises, according to the bible?

Yes.

How do you know god wants you to do that?
according to the bible there are people who infuriate god no end. people who worship other gods, homosexuals, etc. his rage towards these guys is apparently much greater than his annoyance at, say, the devil. how do you know god wants you to be nice to these appalling sinners? don't you think god might ask you "i spent half the old testament trying to make it clear to you what absolute scum these people are, now i see you're having tea with them?"


NT explicitly states that we should be friendly with everyone, NOT make enemies with them.

ah, yes. it also says you should love and forgive your enemies, and turn the other cheek.

what a ridiculous teaching.

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

greed is usually undesirable, but would you rather have parents who want well-paid jobs or would you rather have parents who follow jesus's instruction to think nothing of the future and just follow him? (i.e. no investment, no looking after your family, etc etc etc)


If you think Christians do things like that in the name of faith, you are badly misinformed.

why don't they? it's what jesus supposedly said...

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

you really don't disagree with it. it's basically come down to a distinction between god and the followers of god. you don't think the followers of god should be in undemocratic control, but you'd quite like it if god was in undemocratic control.


Pretty much.

cool, glad we established that.

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

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I see no reason why the Bible would inaccurately depict his views, apart from transcription error.

why would the bible not be an accurate depiction of the views of a god?
off the top of my head....
1. the people writing the books were lying
2. the people writing the books were crazy
3. the people writing the books were plain wrong (for example, thought they knew something they weren't sure of)
ask two simple questions about the bible. 1: who wrote them? (don't just give a name, try to find out who these people were) and 2: how did they know what to write?
and isn't it quite a big deal that there might be "transcription errors"?


Not surprising that all of these deal with human error.

well, if there's no god (or if there might be a god but there's no reason to suppose it's anything at all like the depiction in the bible) then this would be a human error in saying otherwise, wouldn't it?

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If the Bible is really God's word, he would have made sure it did not get screwed over by human error.

i think a rebuttal is superfluous

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

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I feel the same way when someone is converted to Christianity after visiting our church for some time. It's a simple feeling of elation after conversion.

don't act as if the two things are the same.


Excuse me? The basis IS the same: an individual changing what he believes.

there's a world of difference.

nobody told starbuzzz what he must believe. what he believes is not a result of swallowing dogma. secondly, i would never dream of saying he has to agree with me and he'll be punished if he doesn't - i'd be ashamed of myself if i said something so sick. thirdly, it'd be all fine with me if, after breaking free of christianity, he made the free informed choice to follow a different religion. i must admit i think he's better off as an atheist but if he's got the intellectual freedom that was always being denied him by his christian parents, local religious orders and education, then that's the thing to smile about.

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

intellectual freedom is a basic human right (though most religions don't want to admit it). it was being denied him for one reason: religion.


Religion doesn't block "intellectual freedom" as much as you claim it does.

as long as hell is spoken of, yes it does. it would be even worse if it actually existed.

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Spoony wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:32

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Spoony wrote on Sun, 09 May 2010 07:30

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Spoony


where do you live?

I live in the US where there is a line between Religion and Gov't. As thin as it may be there's a line. We have had the 10 commandments pulled from courthouses. If people here have a problem with something we take it upon ourselves to get it changed.

the line certainly is thin and it's being tested all the time, isn't it?

Yep, and usually by the atheists. Almost every time we hear of a bill in petition, it's about some atheist group wanting so-and-so removed.

Such as?


Pretty much everything that refers to God.

Give a specific example? (or several if you like)

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Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44

And satan? The idea of satan is so absurd in America that most christians here are afraid and downright embarrased to talk about him while the same christians elsewhere, treat him with so much respect and give him so much credit. The world "devil" is ignored here and conveniently so.


We don't ingore him. He's a frequent topic.

i don't know how you could spend that much time talking about satan, unless you're making up a lot of the material yourself.

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Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44

What else have you learned? You justify dictatorships over and over again. I guess dictatorships are ok with you if the dictator shares your same view. How unfair for the others! You don't realize this simple concept of equality. Is this what someone who hasn't been seriously stained with religion will say?


Is it a simple assumption, then, that no matter how well a system is designed, there will be people who want no part of it, and deserve rights?

this isn't much of a rebuttal, since we don't accept that this system is well-designed at all.

as to the second part of the question - will there always be people who want to assert their basic human rights? i certainly hope so.

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And if the Biblical system is so bad, why are all the examples I've seen so far been OT based?

*cough* hell *cough*

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Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44

No one is going to be convinced if you just assert this over and over while outright ignoring the basic evolutionary history and social processes of early human movements that eventually forms deeper concepts such as unity, tribal idnetity, religions etc etc. And you have already plentifully demonstrated that you know little about other diverse cultures and societies both past and present (other than believing they are all going to hell).


And when I question these "basic evolutionary history and social processes", I am told to shut up (not by anyone in partuclar - apparently I need to emphasize this).

by who, then?

and are you told that you'll be physically punished for daring to question these concepts?

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Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44

For example, as a kid living in a christian Indian home, the lie that hindus are the lowest scum of the earth ever has been impressed upon me. Seems they ain't all as bad as they were pumped up to be. I guess atheism has made me more tolerant towards others.


if i can interject - it's not that well known in the west that bin laden seems to hate hindus even more than he hates christians and jews.

not really relevant to anything being said here, just a point which could probably be more well known than it is

Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44

I already said my reasons for debating you. Not to prove you wrong but trying to see if you have anything new. It's hard for me to look at what you are saying with a "let's see what they have to say" attitude because I was once in your position and can never be in your posititon again unless I "believe" and have "faith."


I wasn't speaking about anyone in particular. Why do I have to express that?
I even mentioned earlier the reasons why you're debating here, incase you missed it.

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Starbuzzz wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 16:44

Spoony was the most lenient of them all. Why? Even though he offended me a lot and I hated him for it, I kept debating with him because I he never insulted me and or uselessly retorted to name-calling like the others.


I wonder why he does it now, then?

I wouldn't say I "uselessly resorted to namecalling".

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