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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #425058 is a reply to message #422616] Wed, 07 April 2010 21:00 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Altzan is currently offline  Altzan
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Registered: September 2008
Location: Tennessee
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Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

dude, do yourself a favour, don't lie. don't act like i twisted your words, don't act like i misrepresented your statement. you won't get away with it and you make yourself look much worse by trying.
i asked you very clearly how you define "repenting" if you do something wrong. you said: ask forgiveness in church if it's a public sin, ask forgiveness through prayer if it's a private sin. i immediately responded by saying: what, so nothing about apologising to the actual people you affected, nothing about trying to rectify a situation you made worse? you didn't reply with ANY indication that you thought either of those was important.


You never gave me a chance.
I didn't mention apologies to people because you didn't ask. I focused on the sin itself and not on who I might have committed it against - it never even crossed my mind, to be honest, since you gave no indication whatsoever that one was involved.
After I replied, you didn't ASK anything. You said this:

Quote:

This is what I expected, which only reaffirms my earlier statement that you really don't know right from wrong. You say nothing of actually apologising to people you wronged, nor of trying to make amends for a situation you affected. No, never mind that - you just try to please your imaginary friend.


That's not a query, it's a label, and a wrong one. You can't call me out on something you NEVER MENTIONED.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Quote:

I don't think God has given me anything more than what he has given others... I don't get special treatment from him, physical-wise, just for my faith in him.

what has he given others?


No, no, I meant that I don't get anything extra compared to others, based on belief.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Quote:

Lot (the Sodom/Gomorrah man) didn't 'throw defenseless girls at mobs of rapists'... although he came close to. And he was wrong to make the offer.

on what basis do you say he was wrong to make the offer?


Those morals you mention?

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Quote:

You asked what was worse in terms of sin.
I said that God will not condemn a man for one act more than over another.
I made no comment regarding which act was worse.
How can you confuse the two?

firstly, god condemns homosexuality worse than rape. the punishment ordered for homosexuality is worse than rape, and the punishment for the woman victim of rape is worse than for the male offender.


I'm not understanding what you're getting at here.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

secondly, do you really want to say your god condemns all sins equally? that would not put god in a good light.


I'd love to hear why you think he should condemn certain sins less than others.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

there's no mention of satan at all in genesis, and very little mention in the entire old testament. it isn't until at least a thousand years later than men decide to invent the idea of "satan" as you probably think of him now. you really have to try very hard to apply the much later inventions to the much earlier passages, and like you said about deities, if the writers of genesis said the snake was possessed by insert-power-here, they would have said so. what was all that about don't add anything into the bible? Big Grin


He's mentioned in the Old Testament more than 'very little'. God even has a conversation with him regularly, in Job.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Quote:

Also, the prophecy made (not that you believe they're valid, but anyway) said, as God was cursing the snake, 'You and man are now enemies, and man will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.'
The bruised heel represents Jesus dying on the cross, and the bruised head represents Jesus' resurrection.

again, you're trying way too hard here. god's obviously just pissed at the snake, and he's punishing all snakes, not just the one who was there. as, of course, is his unjust and vindictive nature.


Defending the snakes? How appropriate.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Quote:

You didn't say anything about the origin of morals. They didn't just 'appear' when humans did, did they?

if you read the statement you just quoted you'll see i actually did answer the question.


You explained how they evolved over time. Not their origin.
Unless you are saying man made up morals as he went along...
But how does that make sense?

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

here it is:
"Actually, the people wanting proof are those desperately looking for a reason not to believe something they don't want to believe because they want am easier path."


I am wrong with that statement too, then.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

i'll be generous and give you a version of events from someone claiming to be a christian.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_lib.htm


He sure seems to comment a lot on Jesus' birth... but nothing concrete.
One gospel says Joseph was his father, another that he was the son of a virgin. Well, calling Joseph his father hardly means his biological one, does it?
Another doesn't even mention the birth... well, how does that indicate that they didn't believe in it?

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

sigh... this is nearly as bad as the stuff i've already debunked. there's nothing there that some other book couldn't have said.


Yet they didn't.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

all this dodges the most important question i asked. if you find something in the bible that turns out to be useful knowledge, why does that vindicate the entire bible?


I never said it would.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Quote:

Faith isn't a measurable concept, you know.
You can't have more or less faith. You have it or you don't.

that doesn't answer my question.


I did. The answer is no, because faith isn't measurable.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Sat, 03 April 2010 23:47

Quote:

You quoting scripture and pointing at it is NOT an opinion, it's a point you were trying to make.
So I replied in kind.

i'm still confused as to your point

*sigh* Let me try once more.
I said I wouldn't attempt to refute an opinion.
You asked why I tried to refute your verses/claim with Matthew Henry.
I said it was because your verses/claim was not an opinion.

you're talking complete bullshit here, dude. it seems very obvious to me you're just trying to avoid the fact that there were a lot of things i said you simply couldn't think of an answer to.


What tangent are you running off to now?
You've gone and lost me now. I think we're on two different pages...

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Sat, 03 April 2010 23:47

Quote:

Spoony wrote on Fri, 02 April 2010 06:45

i'm reminded again of our earlier religious debate. you said that you'd done things which you would deserve to go to hell for if you hadn't "repented". well, that's quite a daring admission, telling us that you'd done something so evil that it would justify the most horrific punishment of all. (unless you're arguing that god and his punishments are unjust, and you've never seemed to think that)

"so evil"? It doesn't have to be "So evil" to trigger that.

and doesn't that suck?

Duh, no.
"OK, don't sin or you'll suffer the consequences!...well, unless it's a really small sin, you know, those don't count."

and yet you admitted that you did "sin"...


Yes, I did.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

i.e. the thing you originally threatened them with? calling that "saved" is like using the word "protection" to describe a mafia give-us-money-and-we-won't-kill-you deal.


How? The mafia's the one setting up the danger they'll protect you from. And they don't have a reason to, other than money.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Don't you think that the endless threats and bullying and intimidation might be a big part of why so many people don't feel secure being honest about their religious views?


Don't you think I'm just as opposed to these types of bullies as you are?

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

And don't you think that this would be an evil climate to perpetuate, since it would mean that a huge number of people would end up going to hell just because they were too scared to actually speak up about their doubts?


Yes, I do.

Spoony wrote on Tue, 06 April 2010 10:14

Quote:

Right, because they were in different circumstances. They had to move about and interact with other groups, and that was one of God's commands regarding that.
Here, he was speaking to them about how to remain faithful and be saved. Seeing as how that is the same thing we are to do today, the statement applies to us in today's time as well.

You are entirely choosing for yourself, on no basis whatsoever, which parts of the bible apply to you. Just be honest with yourself and admit that this is what you are doing.


I won't 'admit' that because it's wrong.
So, go on if you like.

I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire

[Updated on: Wed, 07 April 2010 21:01]

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