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Re: Catholic adoption agencies and homosexuality [message #422709 is a reply to message #422707] Thu, 18 March 2010 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Altzan is currently offline  Altzan
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Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53

i'm curious to hear your response to what i said about religions having control over schools.


I don't think religious schools work well, or at all - a school implies they are teaching fact, whereas religion is a belief that another may not share. So school and religion don't really mix.
If anything, everyone should have a choice as to whether or not they want to attend.

Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53

That's what I thought. How objectively did they "teach you the faith"? For example, did they teach it as though it were revealed truth? Did they tell you right from the start that there's no evidence at all that the judeo-christian/islamic god even exists, let alone that this book and this religion is a reflection on what he expects of us? Did they point out to you that the book itself can't even get its own story straight? Did they tell you right from the start that there are all these other religions, as well as the possibility of living your life without one? (They probably had to say that two particular religions - Islam and Mormonism - are specifically untrue, because if they were true then you can't really avoid converting to them away from Christianity). Did they tell you the absolutely incalculable damage that the various flavours of Christianity have caused? Just off the top of my head... persecution of other religions every time it thought it could get away with it, two thousand years of horrific anti-semitism and anti-gay people, violently standing in the way of scientific progress, the crusades, the inquisition, willing tool of imperialism and of a huge list of dictators throughout the ages, enthusiastic ally of fascism in europe, and the enormous death toll it's helped to rack up by assisting the spread of AIDS by absurd rules on condoms, especially in africa?
if they didn't tell you all that, then you weren't taught fairly.


If I had to learn all that first, I'd be too overwhelmed to make an informed decision.
The only time it can be taught 'fair' is if you learn it all for yourself, because it's obvious that if anyone teaches you, they'll present their own biased view along with it.
Also, I have to point out that all that horrible occurrences you mentioned are committed by men. It's unfair to blame it all on the religion when it's the people's fault, who want to pin all of it on their religion and saying they were commanded to do so, when they often weren't.
If I were present at any of the above listed persecution or tyranny, I'd be actively against it as well.

Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53

and here's something that you may have been taught: were you at any point told that "faith" is a good thing?


Seeing as how most, if not all, religions are based on faith, then yes.

Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53

when I say blasphemy is prohibited, i refer to the stern warnings in the bible that your god isn't going to put up with it. the death penalty is mentioned a few times. this would appear to be a "sin", then (as is worshipping a different god, or having doubts about your god)


Blasphemy = sin, then? We don't act against sinners. We believe God will, so I'm guessing that's where the problem lies. There are apparently a lot of people in Christianity who want to take God's judgment and wield it themselves against others.

Spoony wrote on Thu, 18 March 2010 16:53

actually, abortion isn't a good example of what i meant, because there are genuine arguments against abortion. when i say genuine argument i mean something better than "god doesn't want this happening", which is a totally meaningless statement until you've proven that -a- your god exists, -b- he does indeed feel that way, and then you still have to make the case that what he wants is more important than democracy.

no, i'm talking about things like homosexuality, blasphemy, dietary requirements etc, for which the genuine secular case against them has yet to be made. if these are things that your religion doesn't like, then you avoid doing them yourself, leave the rest of us alone and the town is big enough for the both of us, hmmm?

sadly that's not the case with so many religious people, and your statement implied that it's the same sort of thing with you... i.e. if it's a "sin" then you ought to fight to keep it banned.


I'd be against it just as much as a non-believer who is also against homosexuality would be. I'm talking in terms of letting our voices be heard. If I don't believe homosexuality is right, I'll stand up and say so, same as those who don't think a religion is right will stand up and say so.

I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker. ~Voltaire

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