Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » The Pointsfix and the Game Listings
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406076 is a reply to message #406070] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 18:32   |
raven
Messages: 595
Registered: January 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Karma: 0
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
Oh, please. The problem isn't that your moderator was cheating and lying to everybody about it, the problem isn't that your moderator was carrying on his 4-year renerage against me all based on a lie, the problem is that I defended myself? Sometimes the smallest amount of common sense seems to be in order.
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That obviously was a problem, it was dealt with accordingly. He was stripped of his mod status and banned. You two felt that you needed to continue your feud, we put a stop to it in our forums; it really is as simple as that.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
I did not attempt to correct any grammar, and I did not say there was a structural "error". I simply said that your one paragraph contained many different statements being made at once and it was necessary to separate them.
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Which implies structural error as a proper statement wouldn't have multiple thoughts in one. Regardless, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
The only difference is TT's claim to authority is so very much stronger.
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TT's claim to authority on a nickname is about as equal as Osama Bin Ladens. Quit using that because everyone's claim to a nickname on a public service is completely equal, no greater no less.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
Perhaps you can explain what's wrong with it?
The VERY MOST I did is say I thought the pointsfix was a good thing and made it very clear why, giving my reasons of which there were many. It was never my choice that it was there, it was Jelly's. And Jelly was a better man then; he said over and over again: "you guys don't need to go mental at spoony here, it's not him deciding that the pointsfix is here, it's me". Pity nobody listened to him at a time when he made more sense than he does now.
If people can say they don't like it, I can say I like it. And my posts were far more courteous than a great many of the anti-pointsfixers.
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I honestly don't know what the problem with it is. Maybe you should ask the people that have the problem with you, your answer clearly lies there. As to your personal quarrel with Jelly, I won't comment. That's what that is, by the way.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
I appreciate the correction, minor as it is.
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Not at all.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
Uh, you didn't follow me. On the old WOL, someone else took "spoony". I had to make do with something else. but the fact someone else took "spoony" IN NO WAY hindered my ability to play, my opportunities were still as good as anyone else's. Taking all the a00 names DIRECTLY harms all other communities' chances of getting new players, because when a new player logs in, you can decide what servers he sees.
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So what you said applies for some nicknames, but not others? That's pretty shifty.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
Better question: what's wrong with your community getting to decide this? The answer is: everything.
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So you answer a question with a question, then answer your own question? Try answering the root question first, then expand on with your own.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
After I started this poll, it was claimed that he has half the a00 names. I didn't know that, and the person who said so didn't know either. Turns out nightma12 has only two of them. And he said he's fine with the system being reformed.
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He's got more than 2, 5 at the very least. He gives them to customers that PAY for his services.
Don't even get me started on people who rent out nicknames.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
I know about as much about it as you know about how big a problem a00 is. Like I said, you've never needed to know; you've had all the a00 names you need, for years. Don't get me wrong, I was in your position. I now know better.
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I've been a Jelly staff member for a short period of time, a year at most. I've had many communities over the past 7 years I've been playing this game and have not always had the advantage of an a00 nickname. My first server nick was my own nick raven, simply because I couldn't find a high enough nickname. But hey, I still managed to get players! I had some nice 15v15 games when I ran that server.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
Questions. 1. How long did you have to sit idle? 2. How many other sniper servers were there at the time? 3. Who gave you the a00 name? 4. Why did you think it was necessary to get one?
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1. Anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes.
2. There were a good number, it's when the no-reload mod first became popular and there were quite a few. If I had to estimate, I'd say around 10. (Just noreload servers)
3. I registered the name myself. I went thru all the a00 names, trying them until I was able to register it.
4. Obviously, to appear higher on the list. There's no doubt it gives you more exposure, but if someone doesn't like a server they'll leave and go on to the next one. If someone likes the server, they'll come back, regardless of nickname.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03 |
No, I haven't dodged it at all. I've REPEATEDLY asked someone for a very clear clarification.
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Ethenal explained it quite well.
-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406077 is a reply to message #406045] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 18:46 |
Roni
Messages: 10
Registered: August 2008
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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| Roni wrote |
He let's the mods and admins run the servers the way the majority like it. This is one of the reasons his community is still going strong and continues to get donations from its members. He is wise enough to know that there are several diffent styles of gameplay so he started J1, J2, Mini, Marathon and so forth. He has given everyone and opportunity to play on different servers to see if they like the game play or not. I see nothing wrong with this.
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You're saying he keeps his own internal community happy. Great. I'm happy for you. Back to the original question. Why does he need all the a00 names again?
Why doesn't he? He registered them and you are saying he can't use them? There is no logic there. He can do whatever he wants with them. It's up to owner of the nicks to do what he wants to. Is this so difficult to grasp? Does it really matter with the new scripts or the new patch anyways? Why all the hoopla?
| Roni wrote |
You say the communities are upset at his monopoly of the A00 names? Please name those communities? The only threads about people not liking this to my knowledge, are the ones you have personally started.
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See above.
Still not seeing it?
| Roni wrote |
The problem started when TT or someone from TT said the point fix was going to be mandatory. You say TT has gone to great lengths to listen to the majority of people who stated they did not want the point fix and after numerous threads, posts and even in my old community that I started we put up an anti point fix petition which had about 100 signatures from the MCD community and several other communities who felt the point fix should not be mandatory. I venture to say if the point fix was mandatory and we sent those names and started a new petition to EA there would be some second thoughts about what the majority of regular players wanted...
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For starters, they'd have laughed at the idea that 100 is a majority. Secondly, it would have been a simple matter to simply point out to EA the way the people on the anti-pointsfix side were actually behaving. No, roni. We made the pointsfix optional because we chose to. We didn't do it because we thought we had to. We were simply "being the better man". We suggested several compromises, all of which you violently rejected, and we just thought: fuck it, keep your stupid bugged flawed system for all we care. Of course that wasn't enough for the anti-pointsfix crowd (as I predicted it wouldn't be) - they also said I should not be able to choose to use the pointsfix in my own community (if you remember, you supported the saboteurs who subverted the admin's decisions through a campaign of lies, manipulation and rigged polls, instead of supporting the league owner's right to decide how to run his own league)
Spoony I rarely use this term but for you on this response it is quite necessary. You are blatently lying now. Yes, I used your term. You are outright lying. When the initial TT patch was proposed, it was proposed as having the point fix mandatory or it was perceived as being mandatory part of the patch. I did not like that part of the patch and asked that it be optional on the patch to have the point fix.
I never censored you on my forums or deleted your posts when you responded. I let you have free speech and let you paint the picture you wanted. I simply responded with I do not like the point fix but everything else I liked about the patch. Everyone that has read about the patch has agreed it would truly improve the gameplay except alot of people did not like the point fix. I left it up to my community to decide if they wanted it or not. I let you post and respond but the majority of the members did not like the pointfix part of the patch.
When TT officially came out and stated there was going to be a server side option then everything was dropped.
How did I not agree with you having it as an option on your server? You truly can't be serious? As a server owner how could I want to have the choice to have it or not on my server and you not have the same option? Just because I did not want it on my server didn't mean you could not choose to have it on yours. I simply told you that you should listen to the majority of clan players on what they wanted and never did I say you could not have the option to have it. You are just lying about this.
| Roni wrote |
You truly believe in the point fix and 50% or more regular players don't believe in it. It's a matter of choice. Please understand this. Right, wrong or indifferent people still have a choice.
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Um, this might be a good time to say for the thousandth time that we're all fine with you using the pointsbug in your own community, even if you're not fine with me using the pointsfix in mine.
I like the server side option. When did I forbid you to not put the pointsfix on your server? Never!
| Roni wrote |
I have offered up my A00000000 name to you for sale or for rent and you said I was less than honest. Sure 10,000 is alot but you know I would rent it to you for a reasonable price. I truly would sell it to you. This way you can get a name on top with the point fix but with the new scripts and TT patch the host names become useless and it is by player counts anyways.
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Firstly, you're still under the impression that I only want a server up there with the pointsfix. Well, of course you are... jelly lied to you and you believed him. No. If you actually read what I said, you'll see I'm criticising the fact he has a monopoly on the advanced game listings, NOT saying "but i want an a00 name and then I'll be happy"
Secondly, it is in my mind to ask you how you would react if, when you said the pointsfix should be optional, TT said "what's it worth to you?"
First you are being childish now. I have never spoken to Jelly on the matter. What is your problem with him? He has never lied to me on anything. You are raging now and it is quite obvious you need to take some time to reflect on what you are writing.
Second. What kind of scenario are you talking about? You clearly can't be serious? TT is updating a patch for ren that the majority of players should want and not be forced upon. They listened to the majority and made it server side option for the pointsfix.
I simply offered up my A00 nick for sale if you wanted to have a server on the top of the listings. What is wrong with that?
| Roni wrote |
In conclusion, I feel, you have personally tried to demonize Jelly for having the A00 names. Yes, Spoony you have done this and I hope you are willing to accept that fact and apologize to him. People from the Jelly community like him, will defend him and as you can see by the majority of replies they do not like you for trying to demonize a guy (Jelly)
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Firstly it's categorically false. Jelly says this because he thinks it'll mean he doesn't have to respond to what I'm saying. I didn't attack him personally, I attacked his claim to authority.
Secondly, your community over at Jelly is full of people - including many moderators and admins - who CONTINUALLY attack demonise ME simply because they disagree with what I say about the pointsfix etc. Including you, remember. You treated me appallingly.
Spoony you are wrong again. I can't speak for the mods or admins on how they feel about you. You have to take that up with them.
| Roni wrote |
Have you thought maybe, just maybe, that it is not one isolated person but when the majority of responses to your threads are from people who think you are arrogant and disprectful? Please read your responses when someone disagrees with you and they always start with someone is lying and you are always right.
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Bit of a self-defeating argument here, because you did just lie.
"Please read your responses when someone disagrees with you and they always start with someone is lying and you are always right."
Utterly untrue. Go check the "thoughts on the ladder" thread. I give you hockey6v2 or w.e his name is. my responses to him are polite and civilised. i don't flame him, i just respond to what he says about the pointsfix.
so why's he the odd one out? go on, guess. if you can't, i'll tell you.
Utterly untrue. Go and check the majority of responses from everyone who disagrees with you. You pick one thread out of the many you make and you use this as your basis? Trying looking at the overwhelming replies on the point fix threads...
| Roni wrote |
Spoony you and I go back a long time and we have differed on a few things, but primarily it being the Point fix. I hope you take it in the spirit I am sending this. I still consider you a friend and respect alot of things you have done for the Ren community. I just don't agree with the way you are going about doing some things that is all. To all I am sorry for the long post.
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You don't agree with me criticising Jelly's monopoly on the game listings?
You'd do something different?
OK. You disagreed with the perceived notion that I wanted to force the pointsfix onto all servers (untrue, but never mind that for now). What did you do? Make a petition aim it at EA. You didn't aim it at TT or me... you aimed it at EA.
I, on the other hand, have actually tried talking about this with Jelly. I only mentioned the possibility of going over his head (as you thought to do with the pointsfix) AFTER he told me to fuck off.[/quote]
Firstly, I dont agree with you opinion on Jelly's monopoly. No I don't.
Second, I started the petition when it seemed that it(pointsfix) would not be server side optional. Go back on read when the petition was started and look at the options we had then. There was not mention of a server side option until after the masses started to uprise against the pointsfix. You need to be honest here. At the time of the petition you (alleged spokesmen for TT) would not listen to what the people were saying. You only wanted to try to debunk what their opinions and you simply never listened to understand, you only listened to respond to your way of thinking. Sorry to break it to you but people have differences of opinion for whatever reason they like. I can respect that, but you seem to not be able to respect that people have likes and dislikes other than your own.
Thanks
Roni
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406078 is a reply to message #406076] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 18:50 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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Thank you, ethenal.
| GrimmNL |
or you could stop quoting, help TT with the coding to help the patch along. the added days/weeks/months/years this patch is still going to take won't make all those servers suffer as much as everybody reading your quote tree's.
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Firstly, I know nothing about coding and have never claimed that I do. I essentially have two roles in TT.
1. balance consultant - making sure changes won't imbalance the game at all levels of play (which is not the same as "but we don't like it")
2. sorting the ladder out
What I say or don't say here is not going to speed or slow down the patch.
| raven wrote |
That obviously was a problem, it was dealt with accordingly. He was stripped of his mod status and banned. You two felt that you needed to continue your feud, we put a stop to it in our forums; it really is as simple as that.
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No, HE felt he needed to continue his feud. I have never done anything to provoke him, in spite of the extraordinary provocation. Most of the time I just ignore him. Occasionally I feel the need to say: "no, i've done nothing wrong, please stop lying to everybody". And you dare equate this to what he says about me? That's beyond pathetic.
But you did worse than equate it, because you allowed his lies to stand and deleted my rebuttal to them.
As for him being stripped of his mod status, well done. But I've asked this question before: isn't it a little weird that I haven't seen a single public post calling him a twat, criticising him for cheating and lying about it for so long while a moderator? Compared to the EXTRAORDINARY number of posts flaming the hell out of me when I've done nothing worse than disagree with people?
Like I said, you complain about what you care about. Sometimes silence says a lot. You demodded him, but were you really that angry at him?
| raven wrote |
TT's claim to authority on a nickname is about as equal as Osama Bin Ladens. Quit using that because everyone's claim to a nickname on a public service is completely equal, no greater no less.
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That would be the case if that nickname's effect and worth is equal, which in the case of those a00 names they categorically are not.
| raven wrote |
I honestly don't know what the problem with it is.
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Thanks for saying so, it's about time someone did.
| raven wrote |
Maybe you should ask the people that have the problem with you, your answer clearly lies there.
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Again?
| raven wrote |
So what you said applies for some nicknames, but not others? That's pretty shifty.
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Oh, you're gonna say a00 names are worth no more than any other name? Fine, you'll have no problem in relinquishing them to people who do very much think they'll benefit from them?
| raven wrote |
He's got more than 2, 5 at the very least. He gives them to customers that PAY for his services.
Don't even get me started on people who rent out nicknames.
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How can you criticise him? They're his nicknames. He can do whatever the fuck he likes with them!
Or do you think perhaps that's not the way it should be, raven?
| raven wrote |
1. Anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes.
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And how many people do you think are willing to do that, when they can instead go to a server that's probably always going to be populated because it's never had this problem?
| raven wrote |
3. I registered the name myself. I went thru all the a00 names, trying them until I was able to register it.
4. Obviously, to appear higher on the list.
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So there was a point when you thought an a00 name was very much worth having.
| raven wrote |
There's no doubt it gives you more exposure, but if someone doesn't like a server they'll leave and go on to the next one. If someone likes the server, they'll come back, regardless of nickname.
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This is true and I've said so myself, but it in NO WAY invalidates the criticism.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406079 is a reply to message #406078] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 19:04 |
raven
Messages: 595
Registered: January 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
No, HE felt he needed to continue his feud. I have never done anything to provoke him, in spite of the extraordinary provocation. Most of the time I just ignore him. Occasionally I feel the need to say: "no, i've done nothing wrong, please stop lying to everybody". And you dare equate this to what he says about me? That's beyond pathetic.
But you did worse than equate it, because you allowed his lies to stand and deleted my rebuttal to them.
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I guess I have something else to apologize to you for, then. I posted after he made his allegations, then asked people to stop posting about it in that post. You posted after me and I deleted the posts. In fairness, I should have removed his posts in the first place and for that I do apologize.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
As for him being stripped of his mod status, well done. But I've asked this question before: isn't it a little weird that I haven't seen a single public post calling him a twat, criticising him for cheating and lying about it for so long while a moderator? Compared to the EXTRAORDINARY number of posts flaming the hell out of me when I've done nothing worse than disagree with people?
Like I said, you complain about what you care about. Sometimes silence says a lot. You demodded him, but were you really that angry at him?
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I wasn't as angry as I was disappointed. I'm disappointed that someone would abuse the trust given to them as a server moderator and turn around and use cheats like that. It's very disheartening. I can't say that I was all that angry, I don't tend to get angry about a video game.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
That would be the case if that nickname's effect and worth is equal, which in the case of those a00 names they categorically are not.
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They will be when the TT patch is released.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
Oh, you're gonna say a00 names are worth no more than any other name? Fine, you'll have no problem in relinquishing them to people who do very much think they'll benefit from them?
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I wouldn't have any problem relinquishing them IF it didn't give me so much work and this whole situation was handled differently.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
How can you criticise him? They're his nicknames. He can do whatever the fuck he likes with them!
Or do you think perhaps that's not the way it should be, raven?
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Yes, that's right, he can do what he wants with them, and he is, and I have never publicly criticized him for it and I don't plan on starting.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
And how many people do you think are willing to do that, when they can instead go to a server that's probably always going to be populated because it's never had this problem?
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I was willing because I was dedicated to my community. If you aren't willing to put the time and effort into starting a community you're destined to fail, high nickname or not.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
So there was a point when you thought an a00 name was very much worth having.
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When new players were introduced to the game by the masses, of course. You'd be stupid to not think this.
-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406080 is a reply to message #406078] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 19:22 |
stoned
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2009
Karma: 0
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
Firstly, I know nothing about coding and have never claimed that I do. I essentially have two roles in TT.
1. balance consultant - making sure changes won't imbalance the game at all levels of play (which is not the same as "but we don't like it")
2. sorting the ladder out
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odd, I don't see a00 nickname fixer in there.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406081 is a reply to message #406080] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 19:50 |
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GEORGE ZIMMER
Messages: 2605
Registered: March 2006
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| stoned wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:22 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
Firstly, I know nothing about coding and have never claimed that I do. I essentially have two roles in TT.
1. balance consultant - making sure changes won't imbalance the game at all levels of play (which is not the same as "but we don't like it")
2. sorting the ladder out
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odd, I don't see a00 nickname fixer in there.
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Probably because game listings are most likely going to be re-organized anyways, thus making the whole a000 nicknames a moot point.
Toggle Spoiler| Scrin wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 13:22 |
| cAmpa wrote on Sat, 24 January 2009 12:45 |
Scrin, stop pming people to get the building bars.
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FUCK YOU AND THIS SHIT GAME WITH YOUR SCRIPTS!!! I HAVE ASKING YOU AND ANOTHER NOOBS HERE ABOUT HELP WITH THAT BUILDING ICONS FEATURES FOR YEARS, BUT YOU KEEP IGNORING ME AND KEEP WRITE SHIT, SO BURN YOU AND YOUR ASSLICKERS FRIENDS, THIS TIME I'M NOT COME BACK!!!!!!!!!   
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406084 is a reply to message #406081] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 20:04 |
raven
Messages: 595
Registered: January 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:50 |
| stoned wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:22 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
Firstly, I know nothing about coding and have never claimed that I do. I essentially have two roles in TT.
1. balance consultant - making sure changes won't imbalance the game at all levels of play (which is not the same as "but we don't like it")
2. sorting the ladder out
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odd, I don't see a00 nickname fixer in there.
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Probably because game listings are most likely going to be re-organized anyways, thus making the whole a000 nicknames a moot point.
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If that's the case why is this such a big deal all of the sudden?
-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406086 is a reply to message #406079] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 20:12 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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| raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:04 |
I guess I have something else to apologize to you for, then. I posted after he made his allegations, then asked people to stop posting about it in that post. You posted after me and I deleted the posts. In fairness, I should have removed his posts in the first place and for that I do apologize.
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Again, apology accepted.
| raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:04 |
I wasn't as angry as I was disappointed. I'm disappointed that someone would abuse the trust given to them as a server moderator and turn around and use cheats like that. It's very disheartening. I can't say that I was all that angry, I don't tend to get angry about a video game.
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I must say I commend what seems a very honest reply (and the first reply to that question; I posed it to everyone at Jelly, mods and players alike)
| raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:04 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
That would be the case if that nickname's effect and worth is equal, which in the case of those a00 names they categorically are not.
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They will be when the TT patch is released.
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So you accept that they currently are not?
| raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:04 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
Oh, you're gonna say a00 names are worth no more than any other name? Fine, you'll have no problem in relinquishing them to people who do very much think they'll benefit from them?
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I wouldn't have any problem relinquishing them IF it didn't give me so much work and this whole situation was handled differently.
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Then the obvious question seems to be: How would you react it this was TT's response to people saying: "we want the pointsfix to be optional so we can play without it if we like"? Because the situation was handled far worse than anything I've done here, and it certainly created more work for TT, so both statements are technically true.
| raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:04 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
How can you criticise him? They're his nicknames. He can do whatever the fuck he likes with them!
Or do you think perhaps that's not the way it should be, raven?
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Yes, that's right, he can do what he wants with them, and he is, and I have never publicly criticized him for it and I don't plan on starting.
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*Shrug*
| raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:04 |
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:50 |
And how many people do you think are willing to do that, when they can instead go to a server that's probably always going to be populated because it's never had this problem?
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I was willing because I was dedicated to my community. If you aren't willing to put the time and effort into starting a community you're destined to fail, high nickname or not.
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I was asking how many PLAYERS are willing to do that, not admins. If it's a new server it won't have anybody dedicated to it.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406090 is a reply to message #406086] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 20:30 |
raven
Messages: 595
Registered: January 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 22:12 |
I must say I commend what seems a very honest reply (and the first reply to that question; I posed it to everyone at Jelly, mods and players alike)
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Thank you.
To be honest this is the first time I've taken the time to read everything you've had to say in depth and respond to it like this. I had no idea you even posed this question before.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 22:12 |
So you accept that they currently are not?
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For the most part, yes, I would accept this to be a true statement.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 22:12 |
Then the obvious question seems to be: How would you react it this was TT's response to people saying: "we want the pointsfix to be optional so we can play without it if we like"? Because the situation was handled far worse than anything I've done here, and it certainly created more work for TT, so both statements are technically true.
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First, it's a team of people, not just a single guy. My scripts took about a year or two to develop. The amount of people on TT it shouldn't take as near as long as this. Second, personally, I would have been fine with the pointsfix not being optional. I've said this before. I would be indifferent (personally).
However, being in a position of power at Jelly, I must advocate on behalf of my community; its my job. That being said, I can appreciate the position of the anti-pointsfix crowd, being as they've played a bugged version of renegade for so long they don't know any different and they oppose change. The anti-pointsfix crowd also happens to be the majority of the players that come to our servers on a regular basis... You can probably see where I'm going with this.
| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 22:12 |
I was asking how many PLAYERS are willing to do that, not admins. If it's a new server it won't have anybody dedicated to it.
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At the start? Probably none. They don't know the server, there's no reason for them to stay and try to start it. But, if it is new, the admin/owner should be there as much as they can be to help bring players in so that eventually players WILL come and stay when its empty to start a game up.
-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator
[Updated on: Wed, 07 October 2009 20:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406092 is a reply to message #406045] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 21:14 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 16:20 |
On the contrary. it seems that others know something I don't, because I've asked several times for an EXACT explanation of how this will work, and still not been answered.
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From what I have gathered from the team, they're simply using the XWIS-displayed players at the moment. Of course everyone knows this number doesn't include Gamespy/Direct Connect players, and if XWIS fails and your server reconnects (because you're using WOLProxy), the player count resets to 0.
However, I am pushing hard to get them to update the server and client to change the listing to TRUE player count so that this sort will actually be useful and fair.
| Quote: |
R315r4z0r said:
There is no official ladder or prizes anyway..
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That's not true. The BHS(TT) ladder will be official and I have a box of goodies from EA to give as prizes.
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grant89uk said:
There were log files which showed crimson loggin in on it and causing our server numbers on xwis to crash to 0.
It was essentially sabotage.
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Excuse me, but I was exonerated from this and have been further exonerated when you guys (I assume) got the password changed and your player count continues to tank.
http://graphs.blackhand-studios.net/graph.php?server_id=9189
(takes a long time to load, using old laggy graph software because this is a site I made a few years ago)
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406100 is a reply to message #405549] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 23:35 |
olddust
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I didn't read the 9 pages after the first page, I just felt it necessary to state this for the record:
Spoony's right, we've (Jelly) got as close to a monopoly as you can get in Renegade. Although you know this, you may forget that Jelly got arguably the second most active gaming community in Ren when I allowed him to Jelly-brand my servers and stepped back for a couple years, singificantly increasing its presense. It didn't just start that way. I find it hard to believe if this hadn't happened that Jelly would have 2 large servers that are significantly active. Put another way for the sake of discussion, Jelly is two communities put together.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406102 is a reply to message #406075] |
Wed, 07 October 2009 23:50 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
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Goztoe |
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| liquidv2 wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 03:27 |
| Dover wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 14:26 |
It's a bug. It's going to be fixed. This is why it's properly called a "Pointfix", since it's the equivalent of a patch (And would be if there was anyone around to patch it). That's also the reason why anyone who calls it a "Pointsmod" is a huge dicktree.
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i'm sorry if you lose sleep at night dover, but it's a modification to the original points created by Black-Intel, and although all signs point to them being 100% correct some people will never believe it because a Westwood Renegade coder / programmer has not come forth and confirmed it
the original points appear to be bugged, and Black-Intel made a version that appears to restore the original intended points
thus, the pointmod
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Well, to burst your bubble, we got as close to what you suggest here as anyone will ever get. But you seem to have missed it: http://www.renegadeforums.com/index.php?t=msg&th=28502&prevloaded=1& rid=4882&start=75#msg_num_2
I tried to get in touch with Jelly on his IRC server yesterday, as he suggested, but didn't get a reply to my PM (have been on for about 4 hours yesterday evening). Maybe I'm not the person he wants to talk to, it isn't very clear from his post. Or maybe he was away all night.
For the people that say TT will solve things: do you know when it will be released / pushed? Because I don't. For all we know it may take another year.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406110 is a reply to message #406092] |
Thu, 08 October 2009 00:48 |
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RadioactiveHell
Messages: 175
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Crimson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 23:14 |
From what I have gathered from the team, they're simply using the XWIS-displayed players at the moment. Of course everyone knows this number doesn't include Gamespy/Direct Connect players, and if XWIS fails and your server reconnects (because you're using WOLProxy), the player count resets to 0.
However, I am pushing hard to get them to update the server and client to change the listing to TRUE player count so that this sort will actually be useful and fair.
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Glad to hear it, this drives playercount down on a lot of servers, and I think that many smaller communities would greatly benefit from this.
| Crimson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 23:14 |
The BHS(TT) ladder will be official and I have a box of goodies from EA to give as prizes.
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Here I disagree. As Cunin stated before, the current ladder doesnt reward good teamplay. Rather, it rewards pointwhoring.
I believe you exonerated yourself...Your explanation that you were simply logging in to our nickname (which crashes the server) to see if the password was changed didnt jive with the fact that you did this at least THIRTY THREE times.
Also, way to attribute our loss of players to this when the more logical explanation is that school has started and people dont have as much time to play Renegade...Im sure you will find that servers across the board have had a dip in playercount.
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Now, to address the larger issue at hand in this topic. It seems the question is whether to leave Jelly in control of the top nicknames or give that control to TT. Based on the way Crimson runs these forums, I certainly wouldnt trust TT with that kind of power. Also, no evidence has been put forward to suggest that Jelly has been unfair in the way that he has handled this power. Rather, people have been arguing that he simply shouldnt have it...I believe that's a logical fallacy.
Anyway, it seems the choice is pretty simple, and the vast majority of the people who have posted here seem to agree with me.
[Updated on: Thu, 08 October 2009 00:52] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406112 is a reply to message #405549] |
Thu, 08 October 2009 01:00 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
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Location: Belgium
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| Quote: |
Also, way to attribute our loss of players to this when the more logical explanation is that school has started and people dont have as much time to play Renegade
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This depends on the server public. We have noticed a vast increase since school / work started again, during our main playing hours, as people get back to their usual habits (play a game of Ren after work or school, to relax).
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406128 is a reply to message #406077] |
Thu, 08 October 2009 02:52 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
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| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
| Quote: |
You're saying he keeps his own internal community happy. Great. I'm happy for you. Back to the original question. Why does he need all the a00 names again?
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Why doesn't he? He registered them and you are saying he can't use them? There is no logic there. He can do whatever he wants with them. It's up to owner of the nicks to do what he wants to. Is this so difficult to grasp?
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So what's your opinion of the guy who took all the Renegade serials, meaning if you wanted to start a new server, you needed his permission?
They're his, right? He snapped them up, he can do whatever he wants with them.
Also, this argument only works if you say that an a00 name is worth no more than any other XWIS name (like gr8mofo1). If it's worth more, jelly doesn't deserve to monopolise them all; if it's not worth more, why the fanatical resistance to compromise?
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
| Roni wrote |
You say the communities are upset at his monopoly of the A00 names? Please name those communities? The only threads about people not liking this to my knowledge, are the ones you have personally started.
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See above.
Still not seeing it?
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see above re: this isn't the first time it's been brought up, not by a long shot. at one point i actually decided to act as a neutral mediator between my friend jelly and his critics, and that was before the pointsfix even existed, which completely discredits anyone who says "you're only doing this because we took the pointsfix off jelly"
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
| Quote: |
For starters, they'd have laughed at the idea that 100 is a majority. Secondly, it would have been a simple matter to simply point out to EA the way the people on the anti-pointsfix side were actually behaving. No, roni. We made the pointsfix optional because we chose to. We didn't do it because we thought we had to. We were simply "being the better man". We suggested several compromises, all of which you violently rejected, and we just thought: fuck it, keep your stupid bugged flawed system for all we care. Of course that wasn't enough for the anti-pointsfix crowd (as I predicted it wouldn't be) - they also said I should not be able to choose to use the pointsfix in my own community (if you remember, you supported the saboteurs who subverted the admin's decisions through a campaign of lies, manipulation and rigged polls, instead of supporting the league owner's right to decide how to run his own league)
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Spoony I rarely use this term but for you on this response it is quite necessary. You are blatently lying now. Yes, I used your term. You are outright lying. When the initial TT patch was proposed, it was proposed as having the point fix mandatory or it was perceived as being mandatory part of the patch. I did not like that part of the patch and asked that it be optional on the patch to have the point fix.
I never censored you on my forums or deleted your posts when you responded. I let you have free speech and let you paint the picture you wanted. I simply responded with I do not like the point fix but everything else I liked about the patch. Everyone that has read about the patch has agreed it would truly improve the gameplay except alot of people did not like the point fix. I left it up to my community to decide if they wanted it or not. I let you post and respond but the majority of the members did not like the pointfix part of the patch.
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this is more or less true (except for an error of omission when you say "I simply responded with I do not like the point fix but everything else I liked about the patch.". you leave out the fact you flamed the living shit out of me when i was going out of my way to try to engage you in debate, and you kept calling me a liar for no reason whatsoever, and you lied to the community several times (for example, when you said the pointsfix was "bugged", which i challenged you to justify, and you couldn't), but it doesn't disprove anything i said.
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
When TT officially came out and stated there was going to be a server side option then everything was dropped.
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uh no, the despicable way i've been treated by opponents of the pointsfix carried on... if anything it intensified.
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
How did I not agree with you having it as an option on your server? You truly can't be serious? As a server owner how could I want to have the choice to have it or not on my server and you not have the same option? Just because I did not want it on my server didn't mean you could not choose to have it on yours. I simply told you that you should listen to the majority of clan players on what they wanted and never did I say you could not have the option to have it. You are just lying about this.
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i've explained this again and again and again.
people say: TT should make the pointsfix optional. a community should be able to decide, in its own manner, whether or not to use the pointsfix.
ok, fine. i agree with this. TT agrees with this. we will make it so. (there is a problem with this, namely the most vehement opponents of the pointsfix have an unwarranted, unchallengeable chokehold on the game listings which prevents any new server from having a chance. this is ten times more "dictatorial" than anything you can say about me or TT)
now let's think about what this decision will mean.
it means n00bstories can decide whether to use pointsfix. it doesn't matter to me whether that decision is made by a vote, or by discussion among their admins, or by crimson flipping a coin. that's none of my business, or yours. n00bstories can make this decision in its own way.
jelly-servers can make that decision in their own way. exodus can make that decision in their own way. etc etc etc.
can you see where i'm going with this? clanwars.cc can make that decision in its own way. its own way is by the decisions of the league owner and the duly appointed admins. it is not decided by "the people" (it seems very fashionable to call this "democracy", but it's actually much more like communism). now, i was a dictator at clanwars, but a very reasonable and approachable dictator (and unlike most other renegade dictators i at least was honest about it). whenever i made decisions in the clanwars league, i ALWAYS kept the floor open for debate. i would ALWAYS give people a chance to tell me why the decision was wrong, and if you successfully argued that it was, it would get changed. BUT, you have to successfully argue it. "we don't like it" IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. the majority didn't want to switch to manual. i was right, they were all wrong, and if the majority was listened to the league would've completely died, for good, in november 2005. the majority thought soul shouldn't be banned when he was caught pointpushing (again) and photoshopping ss's. i was right, they were all wrong, and the situation was considered so embarrassing (i.e. the community all supporting a convicted pointpusher and flaming the person who caught him) to clanwars.cc that there was serious talk of closing the league altogether.
so sure, my word was final, but i could always, ALWAYS be reasoned with, and i always gave the CW community the chance to try.
the only way to change my mind on CW policy is by the utmost reasonableness. not by bullying, not by threats, not by lying to make me look bad, and not by polls, even if they're done fairly (and they weren't, the anti-pointsfix crowd has been caught rigging them several times)
here's what people don't understand. if you tried to reason against me and failed, the failure is on YOUR part, not mine. it's not a case of "spoony doesnt listen to you", it's a case of "you're wrong so it would be a fucking bad idea to do what you say, because this is important". the funny thing is i actually get criticised for going to such great lengths to engage you in debates and for winning so many of them... it's hard to imagine anything sillier than that. i guess you'd rather i didn't explain my decisions at all?
so spoony says: ok, i DO want to use the pointsfix in my clanwars league.
when this happened, the anti-pointsfix crowd was given every opportunity to debate the subject logically. they tried and catastrophically failed. every single thing they said was proven wrong. they continually refused to acknowledge this, and refused to even read most of what i said. (for example, i had to repeat my post about the vehicle-alignment modification TWELVE TIMES before simpee even read it...)
so, the anti-pointsfix crowd failed completely. what to do then? they resorted to a campaign of lies, manipulation, rigging polls and lying about the results, and character assassination against me (like clearshot and simpee did in the thread on jelly).
now, roni, who do you support here?
A. the rightful owner and admin of the league deciding what's best for the league he's in charge of
B. a group of cheaters and rulebreakers subverting the admin's decisions by a campaign of lies and manipulation
plenty of people have supported B. i cannot name a single person on any forum who has ever supported A. if anybody does, i would appreciate them saying so. you specifically went out of your way to support the Bs.
if you support B, well, that's your opinion. but don't say you agree with each community's right to choose whether to use the pointsfix, BECAUSE YOU DON'T. here's an example of a community deciding to use the pointsfix, and instead of supporting that, YOU SUPPORTED THE PEOPLE WHO SABOTAGED IT. if anybody's still confused, it DOESN'T MATTER whether you like the pointsfix or not. that is not the issue at all. we're talking about a community having the right to decide for itself whether to use the pointsfix, without that right being forcibly interfered with. and in the clanwars case, everybody supports the people forcibly interfering with it. this would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
for anybody who says they support the idea of each community having a choice to use the pointsfix or not: when you look at the clanwars situation, you MUST support me all the way. you MUST tell retards like simpee to STOP RIGHT THERE. you MUST tell them: "if you want to play clan games with the pointsbug, fuck off and host your own league".
maybe the idea of TT deciding on the pointsfix in your own private community frightens you. ok. but when you see people like simpee deciding what's best for someone's private league, that ought to TERRIFY you. same situation, only instead of the interference coming from TT, the group EA have chosen to officially patch the game, the interference is coming from a bunch of cheaters and pointpushers.
if you are angry at me for "trying to force the pointsfix on my server (even though that isn't true), then when you see what simpee and his like did at clanwars, it ought to fucking OUTRAGE you. but it doesn't, indeed it doesn't bother anybody in the slightest AND they go out of their way to criticise the person who is actually the victim of this behaviour, and that's what makes me doubt so many people's sincerity.
"TT wants to force the pointsfix onto my community? THATS AN OUTRAGE!"
spoony: "actually no we're not. by the way, some cheaters are trying to force the pointsbug onto MY community"
"WELL GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT THEN!"
^^ it boggles the mind, it really does.
nobody says a single bad word about what the likes of simpee did at clanwars. some people even try to use it as an argument against the pointsfix and against me. what the hell? do people simply not realise how much damage they're doing to their own credibility, or are they just masochists who ENJOY utterly humiliating themselves?
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
| Roni wrote |
Firstly, you're still under the impression that I only want a server up there with the pointsfix. Well, of course you are... jelly lied to you and you believed him. No. If you actually read what I said, you'll see I'm criticising the fact he has a monopoly on the advanced game listings, NOT saying "but i want an a00 name and then I'll be happy"
Secondly, it is in my mind to ask you how you would react if, when you said the pointsfix should be optional, TT said "what's it worth to you?"
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First you are being childish now. I have never spoken to Jelly on the matter. What is your problem with him? He has never lied to me on anything. You are raging now and it is quite obvious you need to take some time to reflect on what you are writing.
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No, it's quite obvious you need to read the thread.
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
Second. What kind of scenario are you talking about? You clearly can't be serious? TT is updating a patch for ren that the majority of players should want and not be forced upon. They listened to the majority and made it server side option for the pointsfix.
I simply offered up my A00 nick for sale if you wanted to have a server on the top of the listings. What is wrong with that?
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It wasn't even what I was asking for, but that's besides the point anyway.
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
| Quote: |
Bit of a self-defeating argument here, because you did just lie.
"Please read your responses when someone disagrees with you and they always start with someone is lying and you are always right."
Utterly untrue. Go check the "thoughts on the ladder" thread. I give you hockey6v2 or w.e his name is. my responses to him are polite and civilised. i don't flame him, i just respond to what he says about the pointsfix.
so why's he the odd one out? go on, guess. if you can't, i'll tell you.
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Utterly untrue. Go and check the majority of responses from everyone who disagrees with you.
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If you did, you'll see me acting with a degree of civility and reasonableness that is several orders of magnitude higher than my opposition. You're also trying to pull a simpee here: "everything you say is 'person X is lying'". No, not everything, but when people do lie (and the anti-pointsfix crowd is MULTIPLY convicted) I point it out. tell me, if a moderator were to catch a bunch of cheaters, who's the bad guy? seems to me you think it's the moderator.
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
| Quote: |
You don't agree with me criticising Jelly's monopoly on the game listings?
You'd do something different?
OK. You disagreed with the perceived notion that I wanted to force the pointsfix onto all servers (untrue, but never mind that for now). What did you do? Make a petition aim it at EA. You didn't aim it at TT or me... you aimed it at EA.
I, on the other hand, have actually tried talking about this with Jelly. I only mentioned the possibility of going over his head (as you thought to do with the pointsfix) AFTER he told me to fuck off.
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Firstly, I dont agree with you opinion on Jelly's monopoly. No I don't.
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That is not what I asked. I didn't ask you whether you agreed with what I was saying. I asked you whether you agreed that I am entitled to say it. Most of the Jelly community, including Jelly himself, seem to be outraged at me simply for mentioning it at all.
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
Second, I started the petition when it seemed that it(pointsfix) would not be server side optional. Go back on read when the petition was started and look at the options we had then. There was not mention of a server side option until after the masses started to uprise against the pointsfix. You need to be honest here. At the time of the petition you (alleged spokesmen for TT) would not listen to what the people were saying.
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After that last sentence, don't you dare tell me I'm the one who needs to be honest. I wouldn't listen to what people were saying? I went to INCREDIBLE lengths to listen to what they were saying, even though all most of them did was just throw bullshit flames at me.
| Roni wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:46 |
You only wanted to try to debunk what their opinions
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another lie. this is yet another example of someone who doesn't know the difference between an opinion and a fact.
you can't disprove an opinion and i never said you could. but that isn't the point. plenty of people on the anti-pointsfix crowd tried throwing FACTS out there, the vast majority of which turned out to be wrong, easily disproven.
when i'm basing my opinions on a misapprehension i'm generally grateful if someone points it out to me... seems like everyone else straps on the suicide belt.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
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[Updated on: Thu, 08 October 2009 03:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406141 is a reply to message #405549] |
Thu, 08 October 2009 07:05 |
masterkna
Messages: 69
Registered: October 2008
Location: The Abyss, NY
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ok spoony, ill answer your question. if someone went and bought all the renegade serials legally and fairly before anyone else go there, then yes, it would be right to have to ask permission from them. other wise its stealing their property is it not?
 | GEORGE ZIMMER wrote on Wed, 26 August 2009 |
Then again, banning anyone for anything automatically makes you a biased prick who shouldn't be a moderator.
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lol
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406143 is a reply to message #406141] |
Thu, 08 October 2009 07:19 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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| masterkna wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 16:05 |
ok spoony, ill answer your question. if someone went and bought all the renegade serials legally and fairly before anyone else go there, then yes, it would be right to have to ask permission from them. other wise its stealing their property is it not?
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He didn't buy them, he took them. You probably weren't around yet, but before xwis u needed a special serial to run a server on WOL. This serial was granted via a webpage who sent u a mail with one of these serials. Adad found it necessary to create a script that kept refreshing that page with his details, so he got thousands of these serials until the database was empty. Noone could request any more server side serials via the webpage.
He acted in a similar way as Jelly seems to do now. He said: "anyone can join my IRC channel and ask me for one, I don't need them anyway". Problem with this is that 1. not everyone knew he had them (it took me a couple of months before I found out about it) and 2. if he didn't need 1000's of them, then why did he do this? Why did he have more of a "right" to have all these serials, leaving none for others just because he was the first to make a script? Or more importantly: why didn't he just take 10 and leave the rest for others, as he didn't need 1000's anyway.
The comparison with what Jelly did/does isn't 100 % accurate but it is in some ways. Why did jelly register more nicknames than he actually needed (even taking a margin in account)? Why doesn't he leave the nicknames he doesn't need for his community unused, so people with slightly lower nicknames get a higher spot? These are some questions people on here ask themselves. I don't have an answer to them. Maybe he does it to help others? But while helping community xx, he pushes community yy further down the list.
All what I just wrote is even independent from the fact Jelly uses 5 of his nicknames for his own servers.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406146 is a reply to message #405549] |
Thu, 08 October 2009 07:57 |
stoned
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2009
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| Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:07 |
So what would be the harm in giving away his a00 names until then? Everyone knows Jelly's there now. He's had the top spot for what, 4 years? Give communities like blackcell and blackintel, and the "pure-strategy" server I want to set up for the benefit of the ladder (to prevent one community having a monopoly on it), the chance to have the same advantage, and become known to new players before the change happens.
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I'd say that jelly's statement about this being about getting your pointsfix, pure-strategy server near the top of the listing is rather accurate, yet for pages you continued to claim that this wasn't part of the the objective.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406149 is a reply to message #405549] |
Thu, 08 October 2009 08:17 |
ELiT3FLyR
Messages: 119
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how does it fell to know that ur pages of essays will make no difference what so ever? why should jelly hand overhis renepower to some abusive faggot whos trying to make him look bad, even accusing jelly of lying about ur sick brother?
cry all u want about BC, if they didnt want theyre server to die then they shouldnt have made all the rush maps defense maps by putting 4 super turrets in each base + other stupid modifications.
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| Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406153 is a reply to message #406107] |
Thu, 08 October 2009 08:57 |
raven
Messages: 595
Registered: January 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 02:11 |
Probably has something to do with an Exodus admin also being a Jelly admin 
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Since I'm the only one that falls into that category, I'd just like to say that I was asked to join the Exodus community AFTER any of the nickname stuff arose.
-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator
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