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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406020 is a reply to message #406013]

Wed, 07 October 2009 13:59

Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006

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tellsson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 15:18

and spoony:
you know that the pointmod did empty our server why you try to hide this fact?

wtf hide? i simply put forth the opinion that it might not have been the only reason.
other things to consider: 1. the appalling way your community and admins treat people for no reason. 2. n00bstories still seems to get more players than you even though it still uses the pointsfix, and even after the whole exodus business happened.

tellsson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 15:18

and why do you try in the jelly-forum to get yourself banned?
for all others who dont know what i talk about:
a jelly community member tried a poll with the target to get spoony banned from there. and now spoony say something like:" ok, several players want see me banned there. jelly said he listen to this comunity, so he should ban me"
whats that shit? why you do that? the jelly-community has now a little problem. if the admins dont ban you, you can say: see jelly lied as he said that he listen to his community.
if they ban you you can say: see, i told you all that the jelly-community is unfair to me, they just banned me from theyr forum.

i don't think you have a clue what i was talking about.

gladiator said there was no real hope of me getting banned. i said i feared otherwise, because they're always saying they'll "do what the community wants", and most of them voted yes. this is pretty simple.

tellsson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 15:18

do you dont think that your actings in the jelly forums goes to far?

i think i've been incredibly mature and patient in the face of the most extraordinary provocation. in that respect, i am starting to think that i actually have gone much too far.

Hex wrote

You answer my question and I'll answer yours.

Can you do that?, I mean answer a question with a answer not more questions?

Wow, wtf dude? You came into this thread and said: shut up spoony, this is all about to be solved anyway with the new scripts. I said: please explain exactly what you're talking about. I've asked 3 or 4 times now and you've always evaded the question, and you're still doing it now.

simpee wrote

why the fuck would i even bother replying to ur last post when all uve done is called me a liar, and all you are going to say in response is liar liar liar. this is exactly what i am talking about when i say ur style is homo.

Told you you wouldn't have the balls (or brains) to just back down after being caught lying to everybody again.

grant89uk wrote

Spoony was using the argument that Jellys control of the a00 nicknames was unfair to new communities and that if TT had control this would not be the case.

Excuse me? I didn't say "TT will give the a00 names to new communities".

grant89uk wrote

However Crimson the person who is the "LEAD" of TT purposefully tried to stop Exodus Gaming Community from trying to start our own server. Im not going to go into all the other details about that as there have been plenty of threads in the past and we don't need another one.

But Jelly DID help out a new community, something which certainly wouldn't have happened had those nicknames been under the control of TT ie Crimson.

So you're saying you automatically deserve one, and you think Jelly's a great and benevolent dictator because he gave you one and not, for example, Black-Cell and Black-Intel even though they've been around much, much longer and made all sorts of useful anti-cheat stuff?

I've already said that I don't think Exodus did anything specifically wrong by wanting to start a new server, but I also think Crimson didn't do anything wrong by trying to keep her community together. She didn't keep the a00 names from you, did she? How many does she control? One? Two?

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406027 is a reply to message #405549]

Wed, 07 October 2009 14:32

Gladiator
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I'm getting pretty worried - Crimson and Spoony are apparently teaming up to take on the Jelly community.

Their extreme popularity (I can't think of ANYONE who doesn't like them) just freaks me the fuck out.

Edit: Spoony, I know your favorite word (and it's various conjugations) is "lie," but believe it or not, I'm not lying when I say that CASE isn't an admin. To quote my reply on the Jelly forums:

Quote:

spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 08:10

"yes" is winning case's poll by a long way. jelly admins are always saying: "we will do what the majority wants". will they keep their word this time, i wonder?

Find me the quote, Dr. Fucko, where anyone ever said we follow the what the majority wants 100% of the time?

Generally, yes. Always, no.

[Updated on: Wed, 07 October 2009 14:35]

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406028 is a reply to message #405549]

Wed, 07 October 2009 14:34

grant89uk
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Jelly gave us permission to use the one we have. There were log files which showed crimson loggin in on it and causing our server numbers on xwis to crash to 0.

It was essentially sabotage. Not to mention word filters on this forum so that we could not advertise our new community at all.

You keep talking about monopolies well if crimson would do that sort of thing to bring down a newly formed community I hate to think what would happen if she had any more control over anything else in renegade such as server nicknames.

Lastly not even you spoony are that deluded to think what she did on here to keep our community down was justified. Especially when your initial argument here was that jellys monopoly hurts newer communities. Your example about BI and Blackcell etc deserving it more is valid in a sense. But it totally contradicts your previous arguments, because surely NO NEW community will be able to deserve an a00 nickname more than those. So what is the real reason for this whole tirade?

edit:

Spoony wrote

grant89uk wrote

Spoony was using the argument that Jellys control of the a00 nicknames was unfair to new communities and that if TT had control this would not be the case.

Excuse me? I didn't say "TT will give the a00 names to new communities".

You imply this in the way you say that Jellys monopoly on nicknames hurts newer communities. If TT weren't going to help the new communities with nicknames then it doesn't change anything and you have stated absolute nonesense only to go back on your words later on.

[Updated on: Wed, 07 October 2009 14:38]

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406034 is a reply to message #405549]

Wed, 07 October 2009 14:57

tellsson
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well spoony,
you said it many many many times in your essays:

"Now, even though the anti-pointsfix crowd has lost every single debate on the subject." (<< your words)

well i`m in the antipointfix-crowd, and i brought a valid reason (a proofed one)why i dont like the pointmod.

so, i caught you liyng. and to follow your logic (from all the posts where you called other liars coz they perhaps lied once)
YOU ARE NOT TRUSTABLE! YOU ARE A LIAR!

i cant believe you coz you lied.

greetz telly ^^

my youtube. http://www.youtube.com/user/1b2en

TnG #5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U9d6ZwjMvQ << Nod pwns (Trance)

TnG #6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0O3NEQ_RGo << We can do it (Metal)

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406038 is a reply to message #406028]

Wed, 07 October 2009 15:41

Spoony
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grant89uk wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 16:34

Jelly gave us permission to use the one we have. There were log files which showed crimson loggin in on it and causing our server numbers on xwis to crash to 0.

It was essentially sabotage.

Didn't she explain this?

grant89uk wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 16:34

Not to mention word filters on this forum so that we could not advertise our new community at all.

Yes, that's true, and if you remember I spoke out against it.

grant89uk wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 16:34

You keep talking about monopolies well if crimson would do that sort of thing to bring down a newly formed community I hate to think what would happen if she had any more control over anything else in renegade such as server nicknames.

Not just Crimson - TT as a whole, including me. I've already said that I would swear to do everything possible to make sure they were used fairly, and I've never broken my word. Compare this to "fuck off, there's nothing you can do about it"...

grant89uk wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 16:34

Your example about BI and Blackcell etc deserving it more is valid in a sense. But it totally contradicts your previous arguments, because surely NO NEW community will be able to deserve an a00 nickname more than those.

No, no contradiction at all. Jelly's chokehold on the game listings hurts everybody that isn't Jelly or in Jelly's current good books... whether old, respected and deserving communities like blackintel and blackcell, or any new community that isn't Exodus.

Gladiator wrote

I'm getting pretty worried - Crimson and Spoony are apparently teaming up to take on the Jelly community.

You're saying that more than one person has opinions against your chokehold on the game listings? Well, thanks for the info. Of course I'm hardly the first person to speak out, am I?

Gladiator wrote

Find me the quote, Dr. Fucko, where anyone ever said we follow the what the majority wants 100% of the time?

Generally, yes. Always, no.

Easy tiger, no need to get hostile just because I expressed the rather justified worry that you'd "do what the community wants", as seems to be the usual policy.

tellsson wrote

You caught nothing of the sort. You totally failed to refute the absolutely staggering amount of arguments on my side, nor explained why new players should be inculcated into the same bullshit system just because YOU'RE used to it. That's not "winning the argument".

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406039 is a reply to message #405549]

Wed, 07 October 2009 15:45

Dover
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Spoony, Telly is relying on the fact that a lot of people aren't willing to put in the effort to read your posts. So if he just says "U R LIAR I R WINNER GG NUB", a lot of people will have think he will think he nailed you.

Of course, to those of us actually following the thread, the picture looks quite differently.

DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19

Remember kids the internet is serious business.

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406040 is a reply to message #406039]

Wed, 07 October 2009 15:55

raven
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Dover wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 17:45

Of course, to those of us actually following the thread, the picture looks quite differently.

Or the ones who have their heads so far up their ass they can't get the full picture.

PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

Oh wow! LOL. I have had enough of people inflicting TL;DR posts on me!

So, in retaliation, i made one myself!! Wink

spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 15:43

...TT goes to incredible lengths to debate the subject logically, listen to everybody's opinion, reply to everybody. suggests several compromises all of which are violently rejected by the anti-pointsfix crowd. eventually says: ok, we'll give you everything you wanted.

Becasue TT is a community built patch and requires almost 100% community support before EA or whoever runs the show, can ever allow it to become a compulsory patch available through the XWIS patcher.

If you went and made every single change mandatory (and im talking about the things that affect established gameplay), for example, the pointsfix, the community split would make TT as a compulsory and automatically downloaded patch impossible, and therefore obsolete.

Therefore, you HAVE TO compromise or the project fails.

That is the fundamental flaw in your comparison with this Jelly A00 nick issue. Jelly has no compulsion (or responsibility) to provide support to other communities or give up his competitive advantage. You have projected this responsibility onto Jelly but i would say it was never his.

However, despite that, he still CHOOSES to support other communities and continues to do so to this day.

spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 15:43

...people criticise Jelly because it has a monopoly on the game listings.
jelly admins say: fuck off, there's nothing you can do about it...

Goading people into an emotional outburst seems to be your forté. Can you really expect a professional, thought out, meaningful response to EVERY subject you seem to be a part of. Considering the tone (and length) of your original post, i wouldnt have expected less.

But now you have changed the goalposts with your threats to approach Olaf/EA so you will get your professional response and i see, even the promise of a compromise from Jelly for your own benefit.

Unfortunately, nobody had the right to criticise Jelly in the first place - certainly not for the sole reason that he owns all the A00 nicks and uses them as he sees fit. You might "complain" to a sympathetic ear, or bemoan how unfair you think it is that Jelly dominates the top nicks. But fairness doesnt come into it. The nicks are for all intents and purposes, the property of Jelly sans XWIS. Therefore, Jelly should be able to use them as he sees fit.

And how he sees fit, from what i can see, is to provide some of the best run forums as well as several well maintained servers and most importantly, the most cohesive, warm, friendly, fun and inclusive community i have ever been a part of. This doesnt even mention the wider community aspect in initiating and hosting regular and successful inter-community matches.

If the servers were dead, constantly offline, or some bad admins had run the place into the ground, then you may have a case. But i see no evidence of that here and therefore, no point to your argument.

If that doesnt convince you, then how about the fact the server nick is meaningless under scripts 3.4.4 and also the TT patch? Both sort the servers by player count and not the server nick. Unless of course, you know somethig we dont? Maybe TT would decide to change their minds on how the servers were sorted upon obtaining an A00 nick "for the benefit of the community"?

spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 15:43

and maybe we should ban you for giving your opinion at all.

Of course you are not going to get banned. But people do feel strongly about how you are conducting yourself in these forums and on others whilst still pertaining to be a part of this community.

You posted that you thought it may be necessary to approach Olaf/EA to have the A00 nicks forcibly removed from Jelly for the benefit of the "more responsible" group, TT (of which you happen to be a senior member). And you think everyone would just take that at face value and welcome you back here without prejudice?

If you want to be a part of a community, then be a part of it. Not constantly creating or provoking heated arguments and endlessly one-sided debates on non-issues or things that are already resolved.

Gr8mofo1 wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:36

I usually stay pretty quiet on the topics Spoony starts because frankly in the last year they are just a waste of time. Let me preface the following comments with the fact that I do not know Jelly other than a few hello's and so forth over the years.

I started playing this game when Renstation and NoNoobs were around. I don't recall either of those hosts on the top tier of host names but I could be wrong. We enjoyed the game and found the servers and players we liked to game with.

When iccy decided to merge over with Jelly alot of us NoNoobs players came to play on this server and community. For the most part Jelly was gracious enough to let us play the way we did at NoNoobs. For that I was very grateful. He for the most part let us keep similiar gameplay and strategy since it differed tremendously from Jelly's style of gameplay.

He has never been difficult or has anyone ever felt he was monopolizing the A00 names. He let's the mods and admins run the servers the way the majority like it. This is one of the reasons his community is still going strong and continues to get donations from its members. He is wise enough to know that there are several diffent styles of gameplay so he started J1, J2, Mini, Marathon and so forth. He has given everyone and opportunity to play on different servers to see if they like the game play or not. I see nothing wrong with this.

You say the communities are upset at his monopoly of the A00 names? Please name those communities? The only threads about people not liking this to my knowledge, are the ones you have personally started. Look at Storm server for example. They are not on the top of the list but they still get quite a bit of consistent regular players. The people who play there often like it and I have occasionally gone to play on their server from time to time to mix things up a little.

My point is this. You have personally taken the TT patch to an extreme personal level. I understand you have a lot invested in the patch but please this is just a game. Please note for me when the majority of Ren players and communities decided that they wanted this point fix update or was it something that a few coders and one to two community reps decided they wanted it?

The problem started when TT or someone from TT said the point fix was going to be mandatory. You say TT has gone to great lengths to listen to the majority of people who stated they did not want the point fix and after numerous threads, posts and even in my old community that I started we put up an anti point fix petition which had about 100 signatures from the MCD community and several other communities who felt the point fix should not be mandatory. I venture to say if the point fix was mandatory and we sent those names and started a new petition to EA there would be some second thoughts about what the majority of regular players wanted...

You truly believe in the point fix and 50% or more regular players don't believe in it. It's a matter of choice. Please understand this. Right, wrong or indifferent people still have a choice. J1 put the point fix up and it didn't work to well. Alot of the regular J1 players went Marathon. Imagine what is going through Jelly's mind, hmm.. I have players leaving J1 and marathon is full most of the time now and what happens when marathon is full and no one really wants to play on J1 they will go elsewhere and play on another server? Should he risk losing potential donators because of the point fix mod? I think not. He gave it a fair go at the point fix but it wasn't greeted well by the majority of players so he changed it back.

People have enjoyed this game for several years the way it was created and sure you can post about how it was not created correctly because of getting credits by whoring the harvy with soldiers and what not but who really cares. This is just a game. It is not real life. I don't go to bed thinking about how I can shoot a blue beam at a building at it miracously starts repairing itself?

I have offered up my A00000000 name to you for sale or for rent and you said I was less than honest. Sure 10,000 is alot but you know I would rent it to you for a reasonable price. I truly would sell it to you. This way you can get a name on top with the point fix but with the new scripts and TT patch the host names become useless and it is by player counts anyways.

In conclusion, I feel, you have personally tried to demonize Jelly for having the A00 names. Yes, Spoony you have done this and I hope you are willing to accept that fact and apologize to him. People from the Jelly community like him, will defend him and as you can see by the majority of replies they do not like you for trying to demonize a guy (Jelly) who fronts the cash each month so they can release some steam after work or just to relax for a few hours on Renegade.

Have you thought maybe, just maybe, that it is not one isolated person but when the majority of responses to your threads are from people who think you are arrogant and disprectful? Please read your responses when someone disagrees with you and they always start with someone is lying and you are always right.

Spoony you and I go back a long time and we have differed on a few things, but primarily it being the Point fix. I hope you take it in the spirit I am sending this. I still consider you a friend and respect alot of things you have done for the Ren community. I just don't agree with the way you are going about doing some things that is all. To all I am sorry for the long post.

Cheers,

Roni

Spoony, since you said you won't be replying to the posts at the topic you made on Jelly ("only debate it there, btw. i'm not gonna reply to posts here."), I thought I'd repost them here for discussion.

-Jelly Administrator
-Exodus Administrator

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406041 is a reply to message #406020]

Wed, 07 October 2009 15:58

Hex
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Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 21:59

Wow, wtf dude? You came into this thread and said: shut up spoony, this is all about to be solved anyway with the new scripts. I said: please explain exactly what you're talking about. I've asked 3 or 4 times now and you've always evaded the question, and you're still doing it now

Please point out to me where I told you to shut up or have even been rude or offense to you?, wait you can't because I haven't

In fact, I'm sure I summed it up on my first post, lets see

Hex wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:38

also with the TT patch being forced (for XWIS users), A00 nicks won't matter since the current scripts (3.4.4) already list servers by count not names.

You sir are misguided and for some odd reason think you are right on something that has been shown over and over that you're not

goztow wrote on Tue, 11 May 2010 08:00

If we had to ban all who ever cheated or ever created a cheat (obj3cts and such) then I don't think there would be many members left here (sad fact).

reborn wrote on Fri, 29 January 2010 23:37

std is for pro's. Razz

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406043 is a reply to message #406039]

Wed, 07 October 2009 16:10

tellsson
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Dover wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 00:45

false. its spoonys logic that if someone lied, he isnt trustfull enough.
i caught him liyng, therefore he isnt trustfull.
and he lied to the whole renegade comunity, and thats a real sad thing.. he didnt only lie to 1 person, he did lie to all of us.

greetz telly ^^

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406045 is a reply to message #406041]

Wed, 07 October 2009 16:20

Spoony
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PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

Untrue. Firstly, we've already gotten that from EA. Secondly, the number of people who vehemently oppose the pointsfix is actually a very small minority. Sure it's a majority over at JELLY, but in the whole of Renegade, it's a definite minority.

If we included the pointsfix in the patch on a compulsory basis, it would actually be very easy to convince EA that it was a good idea. I've made patches for EA games before. We gave you everything you wanted about the pointsfix because we chose to, not because we thought we had to.

PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

That is the fundamental flaw in your comparison with this Jelly A00 nick issue. Jelly has no compulsion (or responsibility) to provide support to other communities or give up his competitive advantage. You have projected this responsibility onto Jelly but i would say it was never his.

The only reason why comparing TT to Jelly is invalid is because TT's authority to patch the game was actually earned through years of work on the game and persuasion to EA, eventually gaining their approval. Jelly's "authority" comes from snapping up the names probably a minute before someone else was trying to do the same.

PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

My post was orders of magnitude more civilised than a great many posts criticising the pointsfix. Presumably, then, you think it would be justified for TT to reply to them saying "fuck off, there's nothing you can do about it"? You wouldn't have expected less, eh?

PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

But now you have changed the goalposts with your threats to approach Olaf/EA so you will get your professional response and i see, even the promise of a compromise from Jelly for your own benefit.

Threats to approach Olaf and EA. Well. First I tried reasoning with him, and was told: "fuck off, there's nothing you can do about it, we got there first". I am interested to know where Olaf and EA stand on this. Perhaps, and here's a crazy thought, the name registration procedure was designed simply for people to register their own personal names, since there's actually a limit in place, NOT to register so many server names that you control all the servers you see when you log on to Renegade.

As for the promise of a compromise, initially I was told to "fuck off", of course. I still haven't seen Jelly budge an inch, and he's actually now said he isn't going to deal with me "anymore" (?!?) because I caught him in a lie (when he said "spoony's only saying this because we took the pointsfix off... which was rather easily disproven, although it seems like most of the jelly community still believes it)

PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

And how he sees fit, from what i can see, is to provide some of the best run forums as well as several well maintained servers and most importantly, the most cohesive, warm, friendly, fun and inclusive community i have ever been a part of. This doesnt even mention the wider community aspect in initiating and hosting regular and successful inter-community matches.

If this were true, one would think you wouldn't need any a00 names at all?

As for the most warm and friendly and inclusive community... please.

PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

If that doesnt convince you, then how about the fact the server nick is meaningless under scripts 3.4.4 and also the TT patch? Both sort the servers by player count and not the server nick. Unless of course, you know somethig we dont?

On the contrary. it seems that others know something I don't, because I've asked several times for an EXACT explanation of how this will work, and still not been answered.

PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 15:43

and maybe we should ban you for giving your opinion at all.

Of course you are not going to get banned. But people do feel strongly about how you are conducting yourself in these forums and on others whilst still pertaining to be a part of this community.

That's interesting, because I didn't see a WORD of condemnation against... for example... clearshot. But the person he was so ruthlessly and dishonestly attacking was spoony, so that's not a problem, right?

PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

If you want to be a part of a community, then be a part of it. Not constantly creating or provoking heated arguments and endlessly one-sided debates on non-issues or things that are already resolved.

If you actually read the debates, you'll see my level of logical debate and civility is usually several orders of magnitude higher than my opposition, and yet the most civilised party draws the most contempt.

Roni wrote

He has never been difficult or has anyone ever felt he was monopolizing the A00 names.

Untrue. You think I'm the first person to criticise Jelly's monopoly? A few years ago I actually tried to act as a neutral mediator between Jelly and the people criticising him, and I actually said a lot in Jelly's defence.

Roni wrote

He let's the mods and admins run the servers the way the majority like it. This is one of the reasons his community is still going strong and continues to get donations from its members. He is wise enough to know that there are several diffent styles of gameplay so he started J1, J2, Mini, Marathon and so forth. He has given everyone and opportunity to play on different servers to see if they like the game play or not. I see nothing wrong with this.

You're saying he keeps his own internal community happy. Great. I'm happy for you. Back to the original question. Why does he need all the a00 names again?

Roni wrote

You say the communities are upset at his monopoly of the A00 names? Please name those communities? The only threads about people not liking this to my knowledge, are the ones you have personally started.

See above.

Roni wrote

The problem started when TT or someone from TT said the point fix was going to be mandatory. You say TT has gone to great lengths to listen to the majority of people who stated they did not want the point fix and after numerous threads, posts and even in my old community that I started we put up an anti point fix petition which had about 100 signatures from the MCD community and several other communities who felt the point fix should not be mandatory. I venture to say if the point fix was mandatory and we sent those names and started a new petition to EA there would be some second thoughts about what the majority of regular players wanted...

For starters, they'd have laughed at the idea that 100 is a majority. Secondly, it would have been a simple matter to simply point out to EA the way the people on the anti-pointsfix side were actually behaving. No, roni. We made the pointsfix optional because we chose to. We didn't do it because we thought we had to. We were simply "being the better man". We suggested several compromises, all of which you violently rejected, and we just thought: fuck it, keep your stupid bugged flawed system for all we care. Of course that wasn't enough for the anti-pointsfix crowd (as I predicted it wouldn't be) - they also said I should not be able to choose to use the pointsfix in my own community (if you remember, you supported the saboteurs who subverted the admin's decisions through a campaign of lies, manipulation and rigged polls, instead of supporting the league owner's right to decide how to run his own league)

Roni wrote

You truly believe in the point fix and 50% or more regular players don't believe in it. It's a matter of choice. Please understand this. Right, wrong or indifferent people still have a choice.

Um, this might be a good time to say for the thousandth time that we're all fine with you using the pointsbug in your own community, even if you're not fine with me using the pointsfix in mine.

Roni wrote

I have offered up my A00000000 name to you for sale or for rent and you said I was less than honest. Sure 10,000 is alot but you know I would rent it to you for a reasonable price. I truly would sell it to you. This way you can get a name on top with the point fix but with the new scripts and TT patch the host names become useless and it is by player counts anyways.

Firstly, you're still under the impression that I only want a server up there with the pointsfix. Well, of course you are... jelly lied to you and you believed him. No. If you actually read what I said, you'll see I'm criticising the fact he has a monopoly on the advanced game listings, NOT saying "but i want an a00 name and then I'll be happy"

Secondly, it is in my mind to ask you how you would react if, when you said the pointsfix should be optional, TT said "what's it worth to you?"

Roni wrote

In conclusion, I feel, you have personally tried to demonize Jelly for having the A00 names. Yes, Spoony you have done this and I hope you are willing to accept that fact and apologize to him. People from the Jelly community like him, will defend him and as you can see by the majority of replies they do not like you for trying to demonize a guy (Jelly)

Firstly it's categorically false. Jelly says this because he thinks it'll mean he doesn't have to respond to what I'm saying. I didn't attack him personally, I attacked his claim to authority.

Secondly, your community over at Jelly is full of people - including many moderators and admins - who CONTINUALLY attack demonise ME simply because they disagree with what I say about the pointsfix etc. Including you, remember. You treated me appallingly.

Roni wrote

Have you thought maybe, just maybe, that it is not one isolated person but when the majority of responses to your threads are from people who think you are arrogant and disprectful? Please read your responses when someone disagrees with you and they always start with someone is lying and you are always right.

Bit of a self-defeating argument here, because you did just lie.
"Please read your responses when someone disagrees with you and they always start with someone is lying and you are always right."
Utterly untrue. Go check the "thoughts on the ladder" thread. I give you hockey6v2 or w.e his name is. my responses to him are polite and civilised. i don't flame him, i just respond to what he says about the pointsfix.

so why's he the odd one out? go on, guess. if you can't, i'll tell you.

Roni wrote

Spoony you and I go back a long time and we have differed on a few things, but primarily it being the Point fix. I hope you take it in the spirit I am sending this. I still consider you a friend and respect alot of things you have done for the Ren community. I just don't agree with the way you are going about doing some things that is all. To all I am sorry for the long post.

You don't agree with me criticising Jelly's monopoly on the game listings?

You'd do something different?

OK. You disagreed with the perceived notion that I wanted to force the pointsfix onto all servers (untrue, but never mind that for now). What did you do? Make a petition aim it at EA. You didn't aim it at TT or me... you aimed it at EA.

I, on the other hand, have actually tried talking about this with Jelly. I only mentioned the possibility of going over his head (as you thought to do with the pointsfix) AFTER he told me to fuck off.

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406047 is a reply to message #405549]

Wed, 07 October 2009 16:29

raven
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Colonel

Threatened, not mentioned.

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406048 is a reply to message #406043]

Wed, 07 October 2009 16:29

Spoony
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tellsson wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:10

spoony wrote

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406049 is a reply to message #406047]

Wed, 07 October 2009 16:33

Spoony
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raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:29

Threatened, not mentioned.

Threatened, then.

1. But at first I tried just talking about it, and was DEMONISED (lovely word, roni) for doing so publicly, instead of trying the accepted method of shady deals behind closed doors.

2. Roni's threats over the pointsfix were the first thing he did. His petition wasn't aimed at TT, it wasn't aimed at me. It was aimed at EA.

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406052 is a reply to message #405549]

Wed, 07 October 2009 16:36

raven
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Colonel

That's Roni's business and has to do with his community. The only point I would be concerned with is #1

Had it been a deal "behind closed doors" as you put it, it probably would of had a different result. Not a 9 page thread of going absolutely nowhere other than showing people the immaturity and stubbornness of the entire Renegade community.

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406056 is a reply to message #406052]

Wed, 07 October 2009 16:44

Spoony
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raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:36

That's Roni's business and has to do with his community. The only point I would be concerned with is #1

You say this a lot every time someone from the Jelly camp comes under criticism, such as the INDESCRIBABLE behaviour of your moderator clearshot. If I owe Jelly an apology for "demonising" him (which is a euphemism for saying "jelly, you are my friend but it is my opinion that you shouldn't have this chokehold on the game listings), then there are far better candidates for people who owe ME apologies. for example, roni's behaviour towards me on the pointsfix was ten times worse than my posts towards jelly. for another example, clearshot. for a third, the thing i keep mentioning about the way half the jelly community (including mods and admins) treat me for no worse crime than expressing opinions they don't agree with.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:36

Had it been a deal "behind closed doors" as you put it, it probably would of had a different result. Not a 9 page thread of going absolutely nowhere other than showing people the immaturity and stubbornness of the entire Renegade community.

If we replace "Renegade" with "Jelly" then you're a bit nearer the mark. But that's not nowhere; it's a wake-up call. I said it before. Maybe a few people still thought the Jelly community is qualified to manage this authority, but you guys have done a pretty good job smashing that illusion for the small number of people who still suffered from it.

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406057 is a reply to message #405549]

Wed, 07 October 2009 16:59

raven
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I say that because I personally don't want anything to do with the matter. In my opinion clearsh0t shouldn't even be a moderator but that's an issue we have to solve as a community, not here. I also never said a thing about you owing apologies to anybody, I'm not sure why you're bringing that up with me. I'd like a list of every Jelly moderator that you think has treated you unfairly, starting with myself of course, along with the reason why you think you were treated unfairly. I keep seeing you say this and you say it's about half, I want to see facts to back up your statements.

Since when do you need to be qualified to register nicknames on a game? Is there a license or a management course you need to go through? I don't quite know how to put this any differently than I have before; the nicknames were fair game for anyone to register, Jelly beat everyone to the punch and has run a great community on these nicks for years. You don't share this opinion because you've made yourself unwelcome there. Tough shit for you; you did it to yourself.

What if I wanted the Spoony nickname and it was already taken? I had grandiose plans for that nick but it's taken =( I know what I'll do, I'll try to seize it forcefully by making threats and trying to gain public support! Ridiculous, right? Well that's pretty much what you're trying to accomplish here; albeit the nicknames are a bit better than the "Spoony" nickname.

You still have yet to answer me as to why you went after Jelly specifically, when others own the other half of the front page. What's the real reason behind all this?

Also, you have no idea how hard it would be for me to change all my scripts and coding around for new nicknames for the other servers. My ban system is fully integrated to the direct connect checking scripts which all have the server nicks hardcoded into them at some point. I no longer have the source so I'd have to recode everything which I don't plan on doing.

Lastly, this is all for nothing when the TT patch is released. It sorts it by players ingame instead of nicks (which is the better system anyhow, and it should have been like that from the start). Unless TT is going to be another year, what's the point in all this?

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406061 is a reply to message #406057]

Wed, 07 October 2009 17:21

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raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:59

I'm just saying it so that Roni and anyone who agrees with him that I owe Jelly an apology might start seeing how many people in their own community owe me one for much better reasons.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:59

I'd like a list of every Jelly moderator that you think has treated you unfairly, starting with myself of course, along with the reason why you think you were treated unfairly. I keep seeing you say this and you say it's about half, I want to see facts to back up your statements.

Yourself? That's easy, although a little masochistic, because I actually decided I'd keep fairly quiet about it. Your moderator Msgtpain, as you know, has had a furious grudge against me for several years, and has continuously attacked me for no justification. (He's TRIED to justify it based on a lie about a very old community match - non00bs vs the pitts - in which he said I behaved badly in regard to a cheat accusation. That was completely untrue - I asked for a screenshot, which incidentally wasn't posted). Usually I just let him rant aimlessly, but every now and again I reply pointing out how full of shit he is. He replies calling me a liar blah blah blah. I'm a little sick of him at this point so I just blow the whistle on his cheating tendencies.

Between you and cunalinga, you deleted my post and locked the thread, then you threatened to ban me (and threw in a personal insult into the bargain). Bafflingly, though, his ridiculous lies against me were allowed to stand, even though the rebuttal blowing them out of the water was deleted.

That's not all you've done, of course. Perhaps you remember when bluelabel decided he wanted to organise a comm match in my community's name. For a great many reasons I said: this is not clanwars.cc asking you, and I gave you all those reasons. You deleted my posts - all of which were civilised and clear - and insulted me yet again. I asked you: let's say someone decided to organise community matches for jelly, without permission from jelly himself or you or TD or whoever. Let's then say this someone had cheated in the past, and was doing a terrible job of organising this comm match, and clearly had no confidence from "his" players. Wouldn't you want to say something? What if this happened at clanwars and I deleted your posts and then insulted you for sticking up for your community?

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:59

I don't quite know how to put this any differently than I have before; the nicknames were fair game for anyone to register, Jelly beat everyone to the punch and has run a great community on these nicks for years. You don't share this opinion because you've made yourself unwelcome there. Tough shit for you; you did it to yourself.

You try to cram several different statements into one paragraph here, so it is necessary to separate them.
"the nicknames were fair game for anyone to register, Jelly beat everyone to the punch". OK, so this is your justification for the monopoly. Odd, because I don't think this is what XWIS wanted to happen. Also, you need to answer to my analogy about if EA said: "First person to reply gets to make a patch on Renegade!" or my analogy to the guy who took all the Renegade serials.
"and has run a great community on these nicks for years". Same sentence, totally different point. This doesn't mean anything to anyone outside the Jelly community. This doesn't justify, or require, an a00 name.
"You don't share this opinion because you've made yourself unwelcome there."
I've made it very clear why I don't share this opinion. Try actually reading my actual objections to the monopoly.
"Tough shit for you; you did it to yourself."
How very pathetic. If you actually check those pointsfix debates, you'll see me behave very courteously in the face of unbelievable provocation. People are pissed at me because I hold a different opinion and because they get angry at losing arguments. Neither of these is a crime.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:59

What if I wanted the Spoony nickname and it was already taken? I had grandiose plans for that nick but it's taken =( I know what I'll do, I'll try to seize it forcefully by making threats and trying to gain public support! Ridiculous, right? Well that's pretty much what you're trying to accomplish here; albeit the nicknames are a bit better than the "Spoony" nickname.

I can't believe you just tried to use this as an argument. I think I hear a barrel being scraped.

You can register eight nicknames for yourself. If you register a name someone else wants, the worst that can really happen is they don't get it. This DOESN'T PREVENT YOU making a new name for yourself. Jelly taking all the a00 names DOES DEMONSTRABLY harm other communities; for starters it DIRECTLY means no new servers have a chance of flourishing unless he smiles upon them.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:59

You still have yet to answer me as to why you went after Jelly specifically, when others own the other half of the front page. What's the real reason behind all this?

Oh, you're saying "Jelly isn't the only offender, just the biggest one by far", are you? Well, Nightma has a couple but I've talked to him and he said he'd be OK if the situation was reformed somehow.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:59

Also, you have no idea how hard it would be for me to change all my scripts and coding around for new nicknames for the other servers. My ban system is fully integrated to the direct connect checking scripts which all have the server nicks hardcoded into them at some point. I no longer have the source so I'd have to recode everything which I don't plan on doing.

harder than a new community having a chance of getting new players? i fucking doubt it. but you've never had to try doing that, which is why you didn't think it is a problem. believe me, I used to be under the same misapprehension.

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406065 is a reply to message #406061]

Wed, 07 October 2009 17:39

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Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:21

I'm just saying it so that Roni and anyone who agrees with him that I owe Jelly an apology might start seeing how many people in their own community owe me one for much better reasons.

Although it was never brought up, I do feel that I owe you an apology for acting the way I did during the bluelabel/cw.cc comm war fiasco. For that, I do apologize. It was wrong of me to allow it.

Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:21

I repeatedly asked you to stop posting on the issue, along with cunalinga. You pressed on, you were the only one pressing on with the topic and we asked you to stop. You didn't so we took moderation action against you plain and simple. It's the only way we got the issue to lay at rest because you can't give things up, you have to have the last word and you always have to be right.

Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:21

Good for you for pointing out my grammatical and structural errors, you get an A+ for teaching. I don't have to answer that analogy because it's quite ridiculous, comparing two completely different situations that don't even make sense. A patch and registering nicknames don't even come close to comparing. There is no justification of an A00 name other than the fact that Jelly owns them. He can do what he sees fit with his nicks, just like I can do what I want with mine.

For the record, I've read every single word you've written.

The point is, we didn't want the pointsfix shit to even be ON our forums, yet you insisted on instigating the issue. Your persistance and annoying presence on our forums made you an unwelcome member which is why I say that. I'm not entirely sure that people are pissed at you for liking the pointsfix. I've publically stated that I agree 100% with the fix and people still generally like me... perhaps it's the way you present the information?

Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:21

You can register eight nicknames for yourself. If you register a name someone else wants, the worst that can really happen is they don't get it. This DOESN'T PREVENT YOU making a new name for yourself. Jelly taking all the a00 names DOES DEMONSTRABLY harm other communities; for starters it DIRECTLY means no new servers have a chance of flourishing unless he smiles upon them.

Nine nicknames. I do believe you just answered your own point there. "If you register a name someone else wants, the worst that can really happen is they don't get it." Jelly did just that, he registered the nicks and the others didn't get it. Too bad for them. What's wrong with the servers that are running on those nicks? What's wrong with n00bstories? What's wrong with n00bless? What's wrong with Jelly AOW1, Mini, J2, and Mara? Those are the servers running on the nicks, why is there a NEED for new communities? Especially in an old game like this.

Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:21

Privately I assume, not a big, grand public inquisition like this?

Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:21

You don't even know what you're talking about do you? Literally thousands of lines of code. If you're volunteering to do it, I will concede.

By the way, I have tried to start a new community, don't say things if you don't know what I have and haven't done. Nite-Serv was mine in its beginnings, we had a low nickname, a0000005k, and we made it a successful sniper server. You know how? By listening to the people and sitting idle in it, waiting for people to join. It wasn't that hard.

You've also dodged this repeatedly:

Quote:

Lastly, this is all for nothing when the TT patch is released. It sorts it by players ingame instead of nicks (which is the better system anyhow, and it should have been like that from the start). Unless TT is going to be another year, what's the point in all this?

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[Updated on: Wed, 07 October 2009 17:43]

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406066 is a reply to message #405549]

Wed, 07 October 2009 17:42

R315r4z0r
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I haven't read anything other than the words "points fix" in the title, but I am oddly compelled to just make a post anyway.

The way I see how Renegade works is like this:
If you 'win' by points, then you might as well not have won at all. I don't take wins/losses by points seriously unless it's close and the game literally becomes a battle for points (like both teams just have a refinery left, have points within a few digits of each other and have under 1 min of game time remaining.)

That's why I don't personally care about the points fix. Whether a server uses it or not, the physical damage ratios of everything to everything else stays the same. Regardless of if I get 500 points for sniping a tank or no points, I still do the same amount of damage. I consider a win when one team destroys the other team's base. Therefore, in my personal opinion, forcing the points fix is redundant. It might have it's logical reasons to be implemented, but they are reasons I literally do not care about.

If I lose because some dude on the enemy team was sniping my tank all game, then so be it. There is no official ladder or prizes anyway..

Therefore, I'm not against the pointsfix, but I'm not for it either. I'm just curious to see if there is anyone else who shares that same opinion as me.

[Updated on: Wed, 07 October 2009 17:45]

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406067 is a reply to message #405549]

Wed, 07 October 2009 17:49

stoned
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Recruit

spoony

PapaElbo wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 18:16

On the contrary. it seems that others know something I don't, because I've asked several times for an EXACT explanation of how this will work, and still not been answered.

.... go download 3.4.4, log on through advanced game listings, and before clicking on anything look how the servers are sorted. not by hostname, huh?

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406070 is a reply to message #406065]

Wed, 07 October 2009 18:03

Spoony
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R315r4z0r wrote

The way I see how Renegade works is like this:
If you 'win' by points, then you might as well not have won at all. I don't take wins/losses by points seriously unless it's close and the game literally becomes a battle for points (like both teams just have a refinery left, have points within a few digits of each other and have under 1 min of game time remaining.)

That's why I don't personally care about the points fix. Whether a server uses it or not, the physical damage ratios of everything to everything else stays the same. Regardless of if I get 500 points for sniping a tank or no points, I still do the same amount of damage. I consider a win when one team destroys the other team's base. Therefore, in my personal opinion, forcing the points fix is redundant. It might have it's logical reasons to be implemented, but they are reasons I literally do not care about.

You're basically saying you prefer marathon and you don't see the need for pointsfix there. Fine. Servers can choose to set the time limit, and they can choose whether to use the pointsfix. Everybody's happy... in theory... until you bring the game listing chokehold into play.

R315r4z0r wrote

If I lose because some dude on the enemy team was sniping my tank all game, then so be it. There is no official ladder or prizes anyway..

There is an official ladder and I am doing my best to make it as good as I think it can be. I also believe EA has committed some prizes to it once we've finished revamping it?

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

Oh, please. The problem isn't that your moderator was cheating and lying to everybody about it, the problem isn't that your moderator was carrying on his 4-year renerage against me all based on a lie, the problem is that I defended myself? Sometimes the smallest amount of common sense seems to be in order.

Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:21

Good for you for pointing out my grammatical and structural errors, you get an A+ for teaching.

I did not attempt to correct any grammar, and I did not say there was a structural "error". I simply said that your one paragraph contained many different statements being made at once and it was necessary to separate them.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

I don't have to answer that analogy because it's quite ridiculous, comparing two completely different situations that don't even make sense. A patch and registering nicknames don't even come close to comparing.

The only difference is TT's claim to authority is so very much stronger.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

The point is, we didn't want the pointsfix shit to even be ON our forums, yet you insisted on instigating the issue. Your persistance and annoying presence on our forums made you an unwelcome member which is why I say that. I'm not entirely sure that people are pissed at you for liking the pointsfix. I've publically stated that I agree 100% with the fix and people still generally like me... perhaps it's the way you present the information?

Perhaps you can explain what's wrong with it?

The VERY MOST I did is say I thought the pointsfix was a good thing and made it very clear why, giving my reasons of which there were many. It was never my choice that it was there, it was Jelly's. And Jelly was a better man then; he said over and over again: "you guys don't need to go mental at spoony here, it's not him deciding that the pointsfix is here, it's me". Pity nobody listened to him at a time when he made more sense than he does now.

If people can say they don't like it, I can say I like it. And my posts were far more courteous than a great many of the anti-pointsfixers.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

Nine nicknames.

I appreciate the correction, minor as it is.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

I do believe you just answered your own point there. "If you register a name someone else wants, the worst that can really happen is they don't get it." Jelly did just that, he registered the nicks and the others didn't get it. Too bad for them.

Uh, you didn't follow me. On the old WOL, someone else took "spoony". I had to make do with something else. but the fact someone else took "spoony" IN NO WAY hindered my ability to play, my opportunities were still as good as anyone else's. Taking all the a00 names DIRECTLY harms all other communities' chances of getting new players, because when a new player logs in, you can decide what servers he sees.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

What's wrong with the servers that are running on those nicks? What's wrong with n00bstories? What's wrong with n00bless? What's wrong with Jelly AOW1, Mini, J2, and Mara? Those are the servers running on the nicks, why is there a NEED for new communities? Especially in an old game like this.

Better question: what's wrong with your community getting to decide this? The answer is: everything.

Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:21

Privately I assume, not a big, grand public inquisition like this?

After I started this poll, it was claimed that he has half the a00 names. I didn't know that, and the person who said so didn't know either. Turns out nightma12 has only two of them. And he said he's fine with the system being reformed.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

You don't even know what you're talking about do you? Literally thousands of lines of code.

I know about as much about it as you know about how big a problem a00 is. Like I said, you've never needed to know; you've had all the a00 names you need, for years. Don't get me wrong, I was in your position. I now know better.

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

By the way, I have tried to start a new community, don't say things if you don't know what I have and haven't done. Nite-Serv was mine in its beginnings, we had a low nickname, a0000005k, and we made it a successful sniper server. You know how? By listening to the people and sitting idle in it, waiting for people to join. It wasn't that hard.

Questions. 1. How long did you have to sit idle? 2. How many other sniper servers were there at the time? 3. Who gave you the a00 name? 4. Why did you think it was necessary to get one?

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

You've also dodged this repeatedly:

Quote:

No, I haven't dodged it at all. I've REPEATEDLY asked someone for a very clear clarification.

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406071 is a reply to message #406067]

Wed, 07 October 2009 18:07

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stoned wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:49

.... go download 3.4.4, log on through advanced game listings, and before clicking on anything look how the servers are sorted. not by hostname, huh?

So it's only for people who choose to download the scripts, clearly a minority. And if the scripts are part of the patch, we don't know when that will be. And of course, Jelly still gets to keep his chokehold until then.

So what would be the harm in giving away his a00 names until then? Everyone knows Jelly's there now. He's had the top spot for what, 4 years? Give communities like blackcell and blackintel, and the "pure-strategy" server I want to set up for the benefit of the ladder (to prevent one community having a monopoly on it), the chance to have the same advantage, and become known to new players before the change happens. Because otherwise it seems like when the change happens, these servers will still suffer, for exactly the same reason.

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406072 is a reply to message #406070]

Wed, 07 October 2009 18:14

Ethenal
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Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:03

raven wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:39

You've also dodged this repeatedly:

Quote:

No, I haven't dodged it at all. I've REPEATEDLY asked someone for a very clear clarification.

And everyone and their mom has attempted to tell you what it does, including the very post above yours: when TT is released, it will (by default) arrange the game listings in order of greatest playercount to least playercount.

To illustrate:
Current System
a00 11/40
a000 27/40
a0000 16/40
a00000 34/40

New System
a00000 34/40
a000 27/40
a0000 16/40
a00 11/40

Is that good enough?

-TLS-DJ-EYE-K wrote on Mon, 18 March 2013 07:29

Instead of showing us that u aren't more inteligent than a Toast, maybe you should start becomming good in renegade Thumbs Up

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Re: The Pointsfix and the Game Listings [message #406073 is a reply to message #406071]

Wed, 07 October 2009 18:15

GrimmNL
Messages: 120
Registered: June 2005
Location: Netherlands, Almere

Karma: 0

Recruit

Spoony wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 20:07

stoned wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 19:49

.... go download 3.4.4, log on through advanced game listings, and before clicking on anything look how the servers are sorted. not by hostname, huh?

or you could stop quoting, help TT with the coding to help the patch along. the added days/weeks/months/years this patch is still going to take won't make all those servers suffer as much as everybody reading your quote tree's.

Xfire account: GrimmNL