Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » RenegadeX-Pre-release --> "Is the GDI/Nod autorifle thing balanced?" debate
| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401455 is a reply to message #401341] |
Thu, 03 September 2009 16:13   |
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R315r4z0r
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| Ethenal wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 22:57 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 21:37 |
Also, I want to go back to a post Goz made about referencing the damage differences to the early game harvester rushes. I have to disagree with that point. This isn't APB. If infantry are forced to rush the enemy harvesters, then they aren't going to use their autorifles to do so. C4 would be the weapon of choice. And even if they do decide to use their autorifles to gain some extra points before it dies, at the end of the day, the harvesters were still destroyed and/or heavily damaged due to the C4.[/color]
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Okay, you've definitely never played in a server with no starting credits.
He does not mean GDI gains the advantage so they can destroy the harvester faster, he means that they gain the advantage in PREVENTING NOD from destroying their harvester and allowing them to destroy Nod's own. The GDI soldier has a more powerful rifle and the Nod soldier's head is bigger because it gives GDI an advantage in defending the harvester.
I guess it's true: nobody on renforums plays renegade.
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I've played on many of those servers, but I don't see the need to do that because of all my years of Renegade, I've learned to make my primary source of income the money I get from damage I do, rather than from the Harvester.
But that's just me. Other people probably find value in defending their own harvester. But really, it depends on skill. You're perfectly capable of taking out a GDI soldier with a Nod autorifle.
To be completely honest, I've never found it hard to kill a GDI soldier as a Nod soldier... however I have found it easier to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI soldier.. :V
And yes, I do play Renegade at least once a week.
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401476 is a reply to message #400864] |
Thu, 03 September 2009 20:24 |
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infusi0n
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I know it works, and I know the current system is bugged according to code but either way has become THE official points system and people have 7+ of gameplay experience with it so
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401482 is a reply to message #401319] |
Thu, 03 September 2009 23:05 |
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[NE]Fobby[GEN]
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 17:11 |
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Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 18:27]I understand your explanation, but I don't really see how a slightly stronger rifle magically balances with Nod's artillery advantage - especially since the damage difference between the rifles is so small, and the GDI soldier is something that is used very early on. Nod's advantage with the artillery sounds like something that needs to balanced between vehicles (like a better MRLS for example?), rather than nerfing the damage of basic infantry.
Anyways we'll be sure to test it out before release. Thanks for voicing your concerns.
And for the record, the main reason for open betas is to get little things like this right before an official release. With the difference in engine and physics, you're bound to run into at least a few differences; some of which could be fixed early on.
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The Rifle grants GDI an (small) advantage right at the start, when everyone is going for the harvs. As said GDI needs meds to counter the arts. GDI needs 2 surviving harvs for this, with the better rifle they can protect thiers better and attack the Nod one better. For the art/med battle to be "fair" the harv score needs to be 2-1 for GDI (harvs that unloaded).
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Oh yeah dude, I fully understand how it's balanced in Renegade, but instead of balancing the artillery with stronger GDI infantry for the reasons you've mentioned, it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other. We believe we have done that. Someone mentioned earlier that Artillery has more splash damage, but a MRLS packs more overall damage, so with a rotatable turret, which many new Renegade maps have adopted, things should work out better in theory. Again, this IS a beta release and therefore an opportunity to put our theories to the ultimate test. This way we can eliminate imbalances and glitches very early on in development.
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401500 is a reply to message #401482] |
Fri, 04 September 2009 03:59 |
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EvilWhiteDragon
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Fobby[GEN] wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 08:05]| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Wed, 02 September 2009 17:11 |
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Fobby[GEN] wrote on Tue, 01 September 2009 18:27]I understand your explanation, but I don't really see how a slightly stronger rifle magically balances with Nod's artillery advantage - especially since the damage difference between the rifles is so small, and the GDI soldier is something that is used very early on. Nod's advantage with the artillery sounds like something that needs to balanced between vehicles (like a better MRLS for example?), rather than nerfing the damage of basic infantry.
Anyways we'll be sure to test it out before release. Thanks for voicing your concerns.
And for the record, the main reason for open betas is to get little things like this right before an official release. With the difference in engine and physics, you're bound to run into at least a few differences; some of which could be fixed early on.
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The Rifle grants GDI an (small) advantage right at the start, when everyone is going for the harvs. As said GDI needs meds to counter the arts. GDI needs 2 surviving harvs for this, with the better rifle they can protect thiers better and attack the Nod one better. For the art/med battle to be "fair" the harv score needs to be 2-1 for GDI (harvs that unloaded).
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Oh yeah dude, I fully understand how it's balanced in Renegade, but instead of balancing the artillery with stronger GDI infantry for the reasons you've mentioned, it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other. We believe we have done that. Someone mentioned earlier that Artillery has more splash damage, but a MRLS packs more overall damage, so with a rotatable turret, which many new Renegade maps have adopted, things should work out better in theory. Again, this IS a beta release and therefore an opportunity to put our theories to the ultimate test. This way we can eliminate imbalances and glitches very early on in development.
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I'm curious, as I always found it a delight that WW didn't balance out all units directly against it counterparts. I hope this will work out, let that be clear  Just trying to make sure that the balance is brilliant again, just as in Renegade 
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401695 is a reply to message #401482] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 10:28 |
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Renx
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Fobby[GEN] wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 03:05]it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other.
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In that same way that giving Havoc and Sakura the exact same weapon was balanced... yeah. If you get into that line of thinking however you'll just any sort of uniqueness away.
I don't know about you but I prefer part of the challenge in any game to be knowing what weapon or piece of equipment to bring to the fight. Instead of "oh i'll just use what they're using."
~Canucck
[Updated on: Sat, 05 September 2009 10:29] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401697 is a reply to message #400864] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 10:37 |
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| SilverDwn wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 13:02 |
this looks amazing! Just wondered if my current computer can support it? I have a Pentium 4 3.4Ghz HT and 1500MB RAM runnin at 133mhz and a 8x Graphics card with 512 onboard mem.
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In one of our next updates we will be posting the specs of some of our beta testers and the FPS that they're getting ingame with those computers.
Unreal Tournament 3 Total Conversion to C&C: Renegade
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401709 is a reply to message #401500] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 11:27 |
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R315r4z0r
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| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 06:59 |
I'm curious, as I always found it a delight that WW didn't balance out all units directly against it counterparts. I hope this will work out, let that be clear Just trying to make sure that the balance is brilliant again, just as in Renegade
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There is no possible way that you could have found enjoyment out of the specific idea that the balance wasn't toe-to-toe because it is almost impossible to even pick up on the differences if you had no involvement in modding or level editor.
If Level editor was never released for the public to use, then no one would have ever noticed the GDI rifle doing more damage than the Nod rifle. It's just that minuscule of a difference.
Figuring out that there is a difference is like taking two large handfuls of small pebbles, walking up to someone, and asking them to point to the hand with less without counting.
If you balance the MRLS to be EXACTLY as effective as the Artillery, people still wont notice how well they are balanced because they are two entirely different types of vehicles. Regardless of how well they play against each other, one vehicle fires 6 rockets from a mobile platform while the other fires a powerful long-ranged shell. They look different and perform different, that's enough to give off the impression that they are different.. even though, balance wise, they are exactly the same.
Renegade's asymetrical balance is nothing more than an illusion.
[Updated on: Sat, 05 September 2009 11:33] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401719 is a reply to message #401713] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 12:19 |
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Ethenal
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| Renx wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 13:32 |
| Ethenal wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 15:21 |
| Renx wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 12:28 |
| [NE |
Fobby[GEN] wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 03:05]it makes more sense to be balancing the MRLS directly with the Artillery as they are counterparts to each other.
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In that same way that giving Havoc and Sakura the exact same weapon was balanced... yeah. If you get into that line of thinking however you'll just any sort of uniqueness away.
I don't know about you but I prefer part of the challenge in any game to be knowing what weapon or piece of equipment to bring to the fight. Instead of "oh i'll just use what they're using."
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It's a game based around an RTS. That's how it's SUPPOSED to be.
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uuh.. C&C was made 15 years ago, have you played any others since then? That's definitely not the defining point of all RTS games. Even if it was, you're willing to throw all elements that build on strategy, tactics, and teamwork because of it? It's because of people that think like that which makes 99% of games these days have that "been there, done that" feeling.
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Yes, it's a game based around an RTS that was made 15 years ago. It's also around 7 years old itself. This is a mod made to bring the game to a new engine. Why would it change?
| -TLS-DJ-EYE-K wrote on Mon, 18 March 2013 07:29 |
Instead of showing us that u aren't more inteligent than a Toast, maybe you should start becomming good in renegade 
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401720 is a reply to message #401709] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 12:53 |
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[NE]Fobby[GEN]
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 14:27 |
| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 06:59 |
I'm curious, as I always found it a delight that WW didn't balance out all units directly against it counterparts. I hope this will work out, let that be clear Just trying to make sure that the balance is brilliant again, just as in Renegade
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There is no possible way that you could have found enjoyment out of the specific idea that the balance wasn't toe-to-toe because it is almost impossible to even pick up on the differences if you had no involvement in modding or level editor.
If Level editor was never released for the public to use, then no one would have ever noticed the GDI rifle doing more damage than the Nod rifle. It's just that minuscule of a difference.
Figuring out that there is a difference is like taking two large handfuls of small pebbles, walking up to someone, and asking them to point to the hand with less without counting.
If you balance the MRLS to be EXACTLY as effective as the Artillery, people still wont notice how well they are balanced because they are two entirely different types of vehicles. Regardless of how well they play against each other, one vehicle fires 6 rockets from a mobile platform while the other fires a powerful long-ranged shell. They look different and perform different, that's enough to give off the impression that they are different.. even though, balance wise, they are exactly the same.
Renegade's asymetrical balance is nothing more than an illusion.
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Right out of my mouth, I fully agree with this.
And balancing the MRLS properly with the Artillery is not making them exactly the same. The way the vehicles are used and their purposes are still very different.
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Check out Renegade X Today!
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401726 is a reply to message #401720] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 13:35 |
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Goztow
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| [NE |
Fobby[GEN] wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 21:53]| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 14:27 |
| EvilWhiteDragon wrote on Fri, 04 September 2009 06:59 |
I'm curious, as I always found it a delight that WW didn't balance out all units directly against it counterparts. I hope this will work out, let that be clear Just trying to make sure that the balance is brilliant again, just as in Renegade
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There is no possible way that you could have found enjoyment out of the specific idea that the balance wasn't toe-to-toe because it is almost impossible to even pick up on the differences if you had no involvement in modding or level editor.
If Level editor was never released for the public to use, then no one would have ever noticed the GDI rifle doing more damage than the Nod rifle. It's just that minuscule of a difference.
Figuring out that there is a difference is like taking two large handfuls of small pebbles, walking up to someone, and asking them to point to the hand with less without counting.
If you balance the MRLS to be EXACTLY as effective as the Artillery, people still wont notice how well they are balanced because they are two entirely different types of vehicles. Regardless of how well they play against each other, one vehicle fires 6 rockets from a mobile platform while the other fires a powerful long-ranged shell. They look different and perform different, that's enough to give off the impression that they are different.. even though, balance wise, they are exactly the same.
Renegade's asymetrical balance is nothing more than an illusion.
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Right out of my mouth, I fully agree with this.
And balancing the MRLS properly with the Artillery is not making them exactly the same. The way the vehicles are used and their purposes are still very different.
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There's no way people would not have found out about the rifle difference. It's a freaking 40 % difference!
You really underestimate competitive players in Renegade, IMO.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401728 is a reply to message #400864] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 13:37 |
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RTsa
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The difference between the Nod and GDI rifle is humongous TBH. GDI rifle does 40% more damage. That's something that is VERY easy to find out without a level editor. You'd get suspicious when you'd win 90% of 1v1 rifle fights as GDI and only 10% as Nod (against a decent player)...or I don't know about you, but I certainly would. 
edit: eh, gozy posted while I was writing...
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[Updated on: Sat, 05 September 2009 13:38] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401753 is a reply to message #400864] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 16:41 |
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R315r4z0r
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Renegade matches are too long for someone to draw the conclusion that one rifle is better than the other. Especially for a weapon that is only widely used at the beginning of a game.
I doubt that if you kill a Nod soldier with the GDI rifle, that you would remember how much ammo it took, the distance the soldier was at compared to you, where each shot hit, and how long (in seconds) it took you to take him down, by the next time you use a Nod rifle against a GDI soldier to compare.
Renegade's health system only gives you number counts for the damage you take on. There is no possible way to know how much damage, in points, you are doing to enemy infantry, without assistance from an outside reference.
Bottom line: Is it impossible to discover the differences without level editor? No it isn't, however it would be highly unlikely and unpractical for the knowledge to firstly be discovered and then to be widespread.
Edit: Yes, 40% might look like a big percentage, but you have to look at the big picture. 40% more of something small is still something small.
It's like picking up on a 40% increase in size of a grain of salt.
[Updated on: Sat, 05 September 2009 16:46] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401762 is a reply to message #401753] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 17:40 |
Homey
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 19:41 |
Renegade matches are too long for someone to draw the conclusion that one rifle is better than the other. Especially for a weapon that is only widely used at the beginning of a game.
I doubt that if you kill a Nod soldier with the GDI rifle, that you would remember how much ammo it took, the distance the soldier was at compared to you, where each shot hit, and how long (in seconds) it took you to take him down, by the next time you use a Nod rifle against a GDI soldier to compare.
Renegade's health system only gives you number counts for the damage you take on. There is no possible way to know how much damage, in points, you are doing to enemy infantry, without assistance from an outside reference.
Bottom line: Is it impossible to discover the differences without level editor? No it isn't, however it would be highly unlikely and unpractical for the knowledge to firstly be discovered and then to be widespread.
Edit: Yes, 40% might look like a big percentage, but you have to look at the big picture. 40% more of something small is still something small.
It's like picking up on a 40% increase in size of a grain of salt.
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Really? Back when we played clanwars 7 years ago we all knew this. It's pretty obvious how much GDI soldiers dominate Nod ones.
Homey
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401766 is a reply to message #400864] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 18:02 |
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R315r4z0r
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You knew it because it's common knowledge. And no, GDI soldiers do not dominate Nod soldiers.
It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle.
Out of my own personal experience, I only learned of the damage differences late in my Renegade career. And that's only because someone else brought it to my attention.
[Updated on: Sat, 05 September 2009 18:04] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401776 is a reply to message #401726] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 21:12 |
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[NE]Fobby[GEN]
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| Goztow wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 16:35 |
There's no way people would not have found out about the rifle difference. It's a freaking 40 % difference!
You really underestimate competitive players in Renegade, IMO.
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Yes, though the damage difference is just two points, right? Yes it makes a difference in the game, but as you know, infantry battles in Renegade was largely based on aim rather than the damage of a weapon. Heck, if you're good enough, you could kill just about any character with less than a clip of the pistol.
If this was done purposely in order to balance Nod use of the Artillery, then would you agree that this isn't the only thing that can be done to balance the teams? Why is it that balancing the MRLS with the Artillery properly does not satisfy? After all, they are counterparts to each other as long-ranged vehicles and cost the same amount, so with a rotatable MRLS turret (which many maps have already done) in theory any balance problems would be at least mostly solved.
It's not like giving the Nod soldier a bigger head or adding 2 damage points to a GDI rifle is the absolute only thing that can be done; it looks more like a last minute fix done when Westwood was balancing the game when testing multiplayer. So since we actually have as much time as we need to get things right with Renegade X, we'd rather resort to a balance solution that does not create this "quick-fix" type imbalance between GDI and Nod soldiers.
As I've said a few times before, one of the many reasons why we're even doing a beta is to solve problems early on and put these theories to the test.
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[Updated on: Sat, 05 September 2009 21:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401780 is a reply to message #401766] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 22:06 |
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Spoony
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 20:02 |
It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle.
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How do you think that? There are only two objective differences: GDI auto rifle does more base damage (7 compared to 5), and GDI soldier has a smaller head.
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401781 is a reply to message #401766] |
Sat, 05 September 2009 23:17 |
Homey
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sat, 05 September 2009 21:02 |
You knew it because it's common knowledge. And no, GDI soldiers do not dominate Nod soldiers.
It's just as easy to kill a GDI soldier with a Nod rifle as it is to kill a Nod soldier with a GDI rifle.
Out of my own personal experience, I only learned of the damage differences late in my Renegade career. And that's only because someone else brought it to my attention.
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Oh it's good to know you know how I knew things. Actually we used to test this stuff out way back when. Gdi soldier has a smaller head and their weapon does more damage. They are far superior, I don't even use nod soldiers, just grab an engineer as I an do more damage with a pistol and take less damage.
Homey
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401792 is a reply to message #401753] |
Sun, 06 September 2009 02:23 |
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Goztow
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| R315r4z0r wrote on Sun, 06 September 2009 01:41 |
[color=royalblue]blue text
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In organized games, we notice the contrary each and every time.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Renegade X - Pre-Release Update! [message #401805 is a reply to message #400864] |
Sun, 06 September 2009 04:40 |
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Mighty BOB!
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Doesn't Renegade do projectile collision with hitboxes and not the actual mesh? (I don't know, that's why I'm asking.) If that's true then unless the Nod Soldier's headbox is also larger then it's a moot point whether the mesh is larger or not.
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[Updated on: Sun, 06 September 2009 04:46] Report message to a moderator |
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