Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » CarrierII's avatar
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| Re: CarrierII's avatar [message #392977 is a reply to message #392887] |
Mon, 29 June 2009 18:42   |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
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General (2 Stars) |
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| CarrierII wrote on Mon, 29 June 2009 10:37 |
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| Dover wrote on Mon, 29 June 2009 01:38 |
Just to prove my point, here's what happens when a Protoss player tries to tech straight for carriers against a competent Terran player.
http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/750
Note that this strategy is actually (Somewhat) viable here, because of the size of the map and because of the strategy employed by the players (Flash is known to turtle quite a bit. Fast carriers when executed correctly are something of an "anti-turtle" build). Even with how delayed the comsat was already, the carriers still get discovered before they're ready to act, giving Flash (The Terran player) ample time to counter.
If you're wondering why Reach (The Protoss player) went for this somewhat odd build, here's the replay/commentary from the game immediately preceeding, where Flash turtles very well stopping any shuttle/reaver action cold, and very effectively blocking any intel gathering with observers:
http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/749
Needless to say, there was no game 3.
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I dislike professional Starcraft because unless both players can unit spam (IE click) equally fast, strategy is all but irrelevant.
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Untrue. In fact, these two players have about equal Macro
Strategy is far from irrelevant, especially in the games I posted here. Watch the first video (Game 2). Reach (Protoss) knows Flash (Terran) will turtle and come out with a huge army once he maxes out his supply (A strategy). In response, Reach (Protoss) goes for fast carriers, to counter Flash's (Terran's) turtling (A counter-strategy, largely unused otherwise). Flash (Terran) is wise to his shit thanks to a Comsat scan, to after a brief period of pumping turrets to buy time, he produces a huge amount of Goliaths and a small amount of tanks, rather than small amount of Goliaths and large amount of tanks typical to Terran VS Protoss builds (Counter-counter-strategy). Good strategy/counter-strategy is what won him the game.
How well you can micro/macro, or what you call "click-spamming" is important, but only to the extent that you can control what's going on in the game. You can click as fast as you want but it won't save you if you make all the wrong decisions. That is what buries Reach (Protoss) in Game 1 (The second video). He spends too much time trying to Reaver-drop, arbiter-drop and gather intel against a basically impeneitrable set of turrets. What he should have done instead is either find a weak point in Flash's (Terran's) defenses, try to out-macro Flash (Terran) by getting more expansions sooner, or out-micro him by winning a big fight and pressing his advantage. What lost him the game was bad strategy that was poorly executed, not clicking any slower.
I really hope you (And others like you) would start to shed the image of professional StarCraft as a clickfest. Certainly that's a part of it, but to say that all you need to do to win in StarCraft is click faster is to say that all you need to do in professional basketball is rebound better, or dribble faster. It's a small part is a large, complex game.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: CarrierII's avatar [message #393221 is a reply to message #389522] |
Tue, 30 June 2009 14:01 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
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General (2 Stars) |
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I demand a response, CarrierII. Have you watched the videos yet?
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: CarrierII's avatar [message #393317 is a reply to message #389522] |
Wed, 01 July 2009 05:09 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
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General (2 Stars) |
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Yeah yeah triple post blah blah.  Here's more evidence to prove my point. The same Terran player (Flash) facing a much more competent Protoss opponent (Stork, who at the time of the match was ranked 6 spots higher than Flash) in the GOMTV Star Invitationals finals. Game 1 on a map that heavily favors carrier harassment against Terran. Flash, again, making excellent use of comsat to detect the early stargates quickly (Even though they are placed in unconventional spots), and good use of goliaths to bring them down, much to the chagrin of Stork fans in the audience who can be heard crying out loudly above the commentators every time a carrier gets downed.
Inb4 clickspam complaining. These are two top-rated StarCraft players who both consistently pull equally-high APM (Actions Per Minute) above 300. This is all strategy, no clickspam.
Seriously, watch the damn matches. You have to be very harderned not to crack a smile to see Flash crapping all over Stork's Carriers like this, especially on a map that so heavily favors Protoss using Carriers.
Edit: And here, Flash (Terran) pulls it off again on game 4 on the same Carrier-heavy map (Katrina), with the same end result. Lesson: Fast carriers fail against competent Terran players, and of course garbage against Zerg. Fast Tech is a gimmick for when facing bad players or the AI.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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[Updated on: Wed, 01 July 2009 06:28] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: CarrierII's avatar [message #393512 is a reply to message #389672] |
Thu, 02 July 2009 10:11 |
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For fast tech:
| CarrierII wrote on Mon, 08 June 2009 13:11 |
True, we can get it to function against the AI quite well, but human vs human games are a whole different ballgame.
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As for the click fest, the strategies chosen only have meaning if both players have roughly equal APM, else the strategy chosen is irrelevant, the player with the lower APM would be overrun, even if his strategy was better.
Renguard is a wonderful initiative
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| BBC news, quoting... |
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| halokid wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 08:46 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 15:35 |
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the hell is that?
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| Re: CarrierII's avatar [message #393617 is a reply to message #393512] |
Fri, 03 July 2009 00:29 |
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Dover
Messages: 2547
Registered: March 2006
Location: Monterey, California
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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| CarrierII wrote on Thu, 02 July 2009 10:11 |
As for the click fest, the strategies chosen only have meaning if both players have roughly equal APM, else the strategy chosen is irrelevant, the player with the lower APM would be overrun, even if his strategy was better.
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Untrue. And even if it was, you say it as if it's a bad thing. Part of the appeal in watching Flash is the absolute precision with which he controls the battlefield. Not one unit out of place, not one factor or SCV sitting idle.
It's like driving really fast in a race. Sure, it helps, but you also need to be driving in the right direction (Or in the case of StarCraft, making the right decisions and "clicking" on the right things in the right places). You'll notice in all the videos I've posted, Flash doesn't win by attrition and out-macroing his opponent--These aren't hour-and-a-half games, where it truely comes down to who can produce more units faster and fund them all.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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