Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Tiberian Technologies Forum » Fixing... Points?
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347336 is a reply to message #347328] |
Mon, 18 August 2008 15:51   |
gkl21
Messages: 238
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| Quote: |
This whole "wait until the beta and see how many people support it" is a farce.. What you should really be saying is "Wait until the beta, when the only cheat free servers are running it, then tell me if you still care." THAT is a more accurate statement. "If you want all our cheat free stuff, you have to swallow the few things you don't like.. that way we can show EA just how much support we have for our project!"
|
Cool, it's all fixed!
| Quote: |
The other servers will be like "hey guys, come to our server that cheaters still play on, and get an extra 100 points for shooting at tanks.." How many people will be going there? And how many server owners will want to make a concious decision to go that route? Hardly any, I'm sure.. guaranteeing you that you will be able to show this "overwhelming support" of the community to EA...
|
We run buggy code. If we allow buggy code, then it's sure no problem that people inject code to do glitches!
Well, that is what I just read.
Just wait until the testing begins and has a fair chance. Remember the first week of the pointfix only? Everywhere was angry, but after that week (or two) of giving it a fair chance more people seen the benefits behind it.
You can look at this either way.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347387 is a reply to message #347336] |
Mon, 18 August 2008 20:50 |
kong009
Messages: 17
Registered: August 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| gkl21 wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 17:51 |
Just wait until the testing begins and has a fair chance. Remember the first week of the pointfix only? Everywhere was angry, but after that week (or two) of giving it a fair chance more people seen the benefits behind it.
|
And then an exponential decline in server population, Crimson's server notwithstanding.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347414 is a reply to message #346858] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 01:04 |
 |
Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
|
General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
|
|
It's a pity so many people write opinions without reading up on previous posts. It was clearly stated before that beta testing will be events-based, so there's no split in server running/not running before the push happens.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347421 is a reply to message #346858] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 02:17 |
kong009
Messages: 17
Registered: August 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
It's a pity you don't put more value in our opinions. It's not like we speak for a small group of people, is it?
When any company goes into development for a patch for a product, they do research on the product by gathering data from the people that use it. Since you don't seem to want to do it yourself, I'm going to give you some research.
1) Jelly has five main servers with one running the pointsfix right now. We elected to test the pointsfix on one server to see its effect on gameplay. We then hosted a poll asking for opinions on the pointsfix. Of the people that voted, 59% said remove the fix, 28% said leave the fix, and 13% said they were indifferent.
2) Over the last several months (since the pointsfix was put in place), AOW1 [a00] has seen what Jelly describes as a "huge loss of players, and many blame the pointsfix." The month of June 2008, AOW1 used 914.6gb of bandwidth at an average of 30.49gb per day. This is less than half of the bandwidth we pay for, so Jelly decided to make some drastic changes: increase starting credits, change the map rotation, increase player count, enable weapon drops, enable spawn weapons, and enable ped beacons (all of which had previously been disabled). After these changes were implimented on 6 July, AOW1 used 1623.34gb of bandwidth at an average of 54.11gb per day that following month (a 78% increase).
Two conclusions can be drawn from these data: 1) The pointsfix is disliked by the majority of players who actually play on a pointsfix server, and 2) the pointsfix caused our most popular server to suffer a massive downward spiral in bandwidth usage over a long period of time that could only be countered by implimenting changes that had previously distinguished the server from any others. The key here is that raising starting credits and enabling weapons drops appear to have (at least temporarily) brought back some of the players we lost to the pointsfix, meaning the pointsfix is flawed without making other changes to the server before implimenting it.
I am happy to hear that testing will be conducted, but the finality with which most of you post about the pointsfix definitely being included in the patch as-is worries me. I would encourage you to view this as a fairly unsuccessful "test" for the pointsfix as well, despite your success with it on noobstories.
I have given you some very hard evidence that would suggest going ahead with the patch+pointsfix as-is might be a mistake, at least until you work out how to compensate for the lost credits. Again I would present the "half-fix" as a potential solution.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347426 is a reply to message #346858] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 03:04 |
 |
mac
Messages: 1018
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
|
General (1 Star)
Administrator/General |
|
|
Please note that Goztow is not part of TT, and does *not* represent TT's opinion or views. Everyone is just representing his particular opinion unless it is specifically stated..
| Quote: |
danpaul88: buggy bugs brenbot because buggy befriends brainlessness
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347483 is a reply to message #347309] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 14:49 |
 |
Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
|
|
| Rocko wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 15:31 |
I don't know how much of a point that is though spoony. It seems silly that the game works perfectly fine the way it is
|
ok... GDI winning easily on many maps is 'perfectly fine', the team that plays far less aggressively is 'perfectly fine', getting high scores by shooting stuff you don't damage is 'perfectly fine'...
| Rocko wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 15:31 |
And it's not even 100% working if you then even have to change price values and use retarded things like donate in order to balance the game out completely.
|
We don't. Pointsfix DOES balance out the game completely, as long as the vehicle-alignment modification is there. If the pointsfix is there:
1. you do not need to change anything's price for balanced gameplay (and if you read my posts a little more carefully, you'll see I never advocated that in the first place)
and
2. you do not need !donate for balanced gameplay (in fact, the corollary holds true; the gameplay is more balanced WITHOUT IT)
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347485 is a reply to message #346858] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 14:51 |
kong009
Messages: 17
Registered: August 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| Goztow wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 04:36 |
No server popularity can suffer as the patch will be tested in "events" to avoid splitting up the community.
|
The comment I made about exponential decline in server population was based on our one and only server that tested the pointsfix, and that was true.
| Goztow wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 04:36 |
You now can conclude that you lost players, which may be due to the point fix and that you gained back players by implementing something else than the point fix.
|
In the months after we put the pointsfix on AOW1, we steadily lost players until something had to be done about it. The fault clearly lies with the pointsfix, as this was the only change made up to that point.
We asked that Jelly remove the pointsfix, but he insisted on leaving it on because we are still in cooperation with Crimson and TT in testing the pointsfix/new patch (although I daresay our conclusions about the pointsfix are hardly being taken into consideration judging from the reaction here). Most of us would like to have seen the pointsfix removed, but this was Jelly's call.
The reason why people keep making topics about the pointsfix (and subsequently why "pointsunfix.dll" is insufficient) is because servers that choose to use "pointsunfix.dll" will be penalized, in my opinion, unfairly, by being excluded from the ladder.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347490 is a reply to message #347485] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 15:05 |
|
Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
Karma: 0
|
General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
|
|
| kong009 wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 16:51 |
Most of us would like to have seen the pointsfix removed, but this was Jelly's call.
|
Congratulations on being the only person at jelly-forums who seems to've figured that bit out :/
| kong009 wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 16:51 |
The reason why people keep making topics about the pointsfix (and subsequently why "pointsunfix.dll" is insufficient) is because servers that choose to use "pointsunfix.dll" will be penalized, in my opinion, unfairly, by being excluded from the ladder.
|
two points need to be made here.
1. a non-pointsfix server not being laddered is not being 'penalised'. let's say someone comes to me and says: 'spoony, i want to play a clanwar with 1000 starting credits'. I'd say no, not in my league, but if you wanna play those conditions in someone else's league, or a funwar, then go ahead for all I care. am I 'penalising' them?
2. I seem to recall everyone on the jelly thread saying they didn't care about ladder, and if a server not being laddered is the price to pay for being able to get credits for no reason, they can live with it. now, suddenly, it wants to be laddered too.
this is one of the two enormous contradictions I've noticed lately. the first is that non-ladderness was a concession the anti-pointsfix crowd granted some time ago, in exchange for being able to get credits for no reason... and now that seems to have retracted.
the second is about half the people who've signed roni's petition, the one that calls for individual servers/communities/etc to choose for themselves whether to use pointsfix or not (a perfectly good demand in my view). so I say ok, fine by me... does that mean you'll all respect my right to choose pointsfix in my own community?
the answer to that has been a very resounding no... from the same people who signed roni's petition. I think a child of nine could see the colossal irony there.
with these two things in mind, let me tell you a little joke: what's the difference between a terrorist and the anti-pointsfix crowd?
you can negotiate with a terrorist.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347493 is a reply to message #346858] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 15:18 |
Jamie or NuneGa
Messages: 954
Registered: June 2007
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
The ladder really doesn't matter, it will prove nothing except who is best at point whoring. Most decent players won't care about being high up on that ladder.
Jamie is a guys name in Europe...
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347603 is a reply to message #346858] |
Wed, 20 August 2008 10:59 |
Jellybe4n
Messages: 409
Registered: August 2004
Karma: 0
|
Commander |
|
|
Blah blah blah, you will do what we say as we know what you all need to make the game fun, we have logic and need nothing else, blah blah.....
Did I miss anything?
Guess not....
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347687 is a reply to message #347603] |
Wed, 20 August 2008 21:22 |
blly
Messages: 67
Registered: August 2007
Location: ONLINE ALL DAY EVERY DAY ...
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| Jellybe4n wrote on Wed, 20 August 2008 12:59 |
Blah blah blah, you will do what we say as we know what you all need to make the game fun, we have logic and need nothing else, blah blah.....
Did I miss anything?
Guess not....
|
Now spoony dont overanalyze this...
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347710 is a reply to message #346858] |
Thu, 21 August 2008 02:52 |
 |
Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
So, Jelly's AOW1 decided to mimic the settings that n00bstories has had for years and gained players. I don't see how that HELPS your points fix argument. Like Goz said, put your settings back, remove the points fix, and THEN come back and tell us what happened. Don't let some non-existent loyalty restriction hold you back. We put the point fix on our servers in order to test how it affected gameplay and balance. If Jelly wants to run another test and see if his players come back by removing the points fix, then it's all part of the testing process. Personally, I found the fix to improve gameplay so much that I can't imagine degrading my server to the Neanderthal days of "Og shoot harv. Og no hurt harv. Og get muny!"
The ladder team was put together a long time ago with partial input from the community... the same community that now thinks it was done WITHOUT their input. Boggles my mind.
So, yeah, I know some of you fucking hate Spoony. And yeah, I wouldn't say he's #1 on my list of people I think are "swell". However, I am mature enough to look past his personality and see the logic in his words and I agree with him, not only because I have been playing this game since the beta test alongside the Westwood developers, but because I have played before and after the bug was discovered and fixed.
The core of the pro-bug people is the opposition of change. Can you can honestly look in your brain and tell us that you wouldn't have bothered playing Renegade if it had always been the way it is with the fix in place? Can you tell us that if some random programmer over 6 years ago hadn't put this one tiny bug in the code, that you would never have liked this game and wouldn't have been playing it all these years? Have you spent more time complaining about the fix instead of making a couple tweaks to your strategy?
I'm not trying to distract you with a proverbial "shiny ball". I just think it's very counterproductive to bash on a team that is doing work that none of you could have ever hoped to accomplish, who is trying to make Renegade the game it always should have been, without asking for a dime in return. I'm pretty disgusted in fact.
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347774 is a reply to message #347710] |
Thu, 21 August 2008 09:44 |
blly
Messages: 67
Registered: August 2007
Location: ONLINE ALL DAY EVERY DAY ...
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
| Crimson wrote on Thu, 21 August 2008 04:52 |
The core of the pro-bug people is the opposition of change. Can you can honestly look in your brain and tell us that you wouldn't have bothered playing Renegade if it had always been the way it is with the fix in place? Can you tell us that if some random programmer over 6 years ago hadn't put this one tiny bug in the code, that you would never have liked this game and wouldn't have been playing it all these years? Have you spent more time complaining about the fix instead of making a couple tweaks to your strategy?
|
No, we probably would have liked it, but since that one programmer put the one bug in over 6 years ago, we learned to love this game the way it is.
TBH i dont even know why im arguing, i got everything i wanted: a opportunity to play on a server that doesnt make sense when i want to, and an opportunity to play on a server that does make sense when i want to.
just a little extra question: will there be some sort of symbol/lettering that will be mandatory to show wether a server is pts fixed or un pts fixed? such as:
[PF]www.jelly-server.com AOW1
[PUF]www.jelly-server.com aow2
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347804 is a reply to message #346858] |
Thu, 21 August 2008 13:01 |
w0dka
Messages: 181
Registered: March 2006
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Karma: 0
|
Recruit |
|
|
I don't get why jelly-server is complaining. I f noone wants the pointfix and every server excluding jelly install pointfix... well this should scyrocket your server to most used.
You complain about TT trys to make this patch supported via EA. Why not. Currently EA don't support the game so if EA does you can always choose to not use it. Worse/unused support is better then no support.
Ladder: Well I don't get why people want a merged pointfix+nopointfixladder its like merging apples and tomatoes.
Just imagine how everyone will say the first 10players all noobjet the whole day against a mammy. on the other hand I myself never played to be good in a ladder. I play for fun and I define fun as a good game, I don't get angry being last one in points but know that my med was defending alone the last ion that killed
nod forces...(but I still hope that in some day they kill those old stats always present on login. it hurts to see my years old win/loss ratio *sniff*
I usually only play on pointfixed servers. And I enjoy it. Actually I'm looking for a european, 30slot+, pointfixed server with <100 startcredits and possible marathonsettings. But hey I can even play on other servers. Its not that I don't find the specific server for me stops me loveing renegade.
Thanks.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347831 is a reply to message #347710] |
Thu, 21 August 2008 19:05 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
| Crimson wrote on Thu, 21 August 2008 05:52 |
I'm not trying to distract you with a proverbial "shiny ball". I just think it's very counterproductive to bash on a team that is doing work that none of you could have ever hoped to accomplish, who is trying to make Renegade the game it always should have been, without asking for a dime in return. I'm pretty disgusted in fact.
|
No one is "bashing" the people creating the fix. What we're bashing is the notion that these people will possibly have the power to determine what every C&C Renengade player gets to see and do when they play.
You are no longer creating an "add on".. No one is "modding" the game for a particular server, or for a particular reason. You have elevated yourselves to the position of God, and are attempting to push out a controversial patch that every single player that still plays renegade will be forced to download when they log on to Xwis.
You want to make Renbot, corepatch, renguard.. someone else wants to make Biatch, ssaow, niteserver etc.. Everyone has always been able to decide how they wanted to tweak their server, and use their own inginuity to create a community that players with similar desires could join. This is all fine and wonderful.. if we want to download it, great, if we like the 1.037 version, that's fine too..
If you want to make anti cheat stuff, yippee; if you want to make it so you don't blue screen when you get in an APC, horray; the community is behind you 1000%. But, what if you wanted to make mammoths do 1.5x damage, just cause a "balance coordinator" decided that a 1500 credit investement should? Uh... no one asked you to, and we don't want it that way.. why is it so hard for YOU GUYS to understand that from our point of view? Then for you to fill us with this warm and fuzzy notion that you're just forcing "bug fixes" on us.. and then make a vote on whether you you're going to fix one of the largest and most exploited bugs in the game? the outside PT's?
Either you're on a moral path to fix bugs, or your on a selfish path to fix what you want, you can't have it both ways. And when you attempt to have it both ways, it just validates our opinions that you aren't really just trying to fix what Westwood left out, only trying to edit the game to the way 12 people want it.
If you want to make Core Patch 3 that is pushed out through renguard to only the people that actually bother to download it; you have my full support. But if you're going to force me to download this if I ever want to play again... well, then I think you need to be a little less biased about what you're going to "fix" and actually listen to the people who's games you are "fixing". None of us voted you God... and if you didn't exist, sure, we'd still have to deal with cheaters, but we'd get along just fine... we have been for 4 years. so don't try and use that as a sympathetic way to whine about how much you are doing for us all, for free..
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347833 is a reply to message #347831] |
Thu, 21 August 2008 19:37 |
 |
cmatt42
Messages: 2057
Registered: July 2004
Karma: 0
|
General (2 Stars) |
|
|
| Quote: |
why is it so hard for YOU GUYS to understand that from our point of view?
|
Probably the paranoia similar to this:
| msgtpain wrote on Thu, 21 August 2008 21:05 |
But, what if you wanted to make mammoths do 1.5x damage, just cause a "balance coordinator" decided that a 1500 credit investement should?
|
Such an absurd idea is only grasping for straws. Not once have they changed the way the game plays out because they felt like it, but because it was due to some broken code forgotton and was unable to be fixed.
| Quote: |
Then for you to fill us with this warm and fuzzy notion that you're just forcing "bug fixes" on us.. and then make a vote on whether you you're going to fix one of the largest and most exploited bugs in the game? the outside PT's?
|
So now it's suddenly bad to consider not fixing something abused often? Which side are you on here?
| Quote: |
Either you're on a moral path to fix bugs, or your on a selfish path to fix what you want, you can't have it both ways. And when you attempt to have it both ways, it just validates our opinions that you aren't really just trying to fix what Westwood left out, only trying to edit the game to the way 12 people want it.
|
And because the supposed "majority" has their own selfish desire to keep the game broken, that's just okay then? Pot, kettle...
| Quote: |
None of us voted you God...
|
"You don't vote for God!" "How do you become God then?"
-Doesn't matter. They're out to fix the problems that exist. If you have a problem, by all means share with us and present your arguments with valid and logical points. Who knows? Maybe we'll see it your way and they'll leave it the way it is.
GunKataGaming.net
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347834 is a reply to message #346858] |
Thu, 21 August 2008 19:42 |
Rocko
Messages: 833
Registered: January 2007
Location: Long Beach, California
Karma: 0
|
Colonel |
|
|
ive been programming games for 30 years i dont think points are even bugged at all
black and proud
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347843 is a reply to message #346858] |
Thu, 21 August 2008 23:29 |
|
Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
|
General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
|
|
For years people have blamed EA because they didn't give us the source code and access to the update servers to fix this game. Now that there's a chance they might grant one of these things, people blame EA/TT for giving/using this chance. It's hard to satisfy people...
If you look at the composition of TT, you'll note that it's really a combination of all the best coders of the Renegade community. People that had trouble working together in the past have reunited amongst this cause.
Your "servers can't choose anymore" is completely invalid: instead of modding from a bugged game to fix it, you'll mod from a fixed game to bug it (in case of point fix) or to fix it in a different way. It's still up to the server. The possibilities will even be multiplied as there'll be an auto downloader. You will be able to make client side changes for your server.
The thing that annoys people here is that they can't have everything like they'd want it in the standard patch. If I had to make all decisions for the TT-patch, I would probably also make some different ones. But I don't and I'm happy to accept to adapt to some things for the benefit of this patch! And if I want it, I can still adapt my server afterwards to suit my special needs.
If you can't accept that people that do hours/days/weeks/months of work on this patch don't ask you personally what they should do, then you're going to get lots of deceptions in your life. But you'll notice that yourself sooner or later.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347852 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 22 August 2008 00:46 |
|
Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
|
General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
|
|
The fallacy of your argument is that you think the majority is against the fix. You can't base an argument on that which you can not prove, especially when my evidence suggests you are most likely mistaken. I would venture to guess that about 75% of the people who don't go to the websites and don't exploit the points bug didn't even notice a difference.
I'm the bawss.
|
|
|
|
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347856 is a reply to message #346858] |
Fri, 22 August 2008 01:12 |
|
mac
Messages: 1018
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
|
General (1 Star)
Administrator/General |
|
|
Hey guys,
Let me say a few words of the TT team leader, and about this issue.
It's not set in stone that we'll be fixing the ladder for this first patch. We're really focussing on the game and fixing issues, and we think this is more important than the ladder, at this point. Everything that is being discussed are ideas. They're not final.
The truth is also that one can never satisfy everyone. Fixing the pointsfix will make one side go mad, not fixing it will make the other side go mad. That is why we're giving server owners the chance to disable it, because we're very well aware that it is a very controversial issue. That's also what testing is for. There will be extensive organized tests on the weekends for several months..
For those people who say noone has elected us to make a patch. I question you - if we're not doing it, who else is? It took me about 2 months to get this team together, and another few months to actually work out on where we're heading. All the best coders of this community are working together now towards one common goal. That's a first. If you really think we're heading in the wrong direction, then please come join us. I'm serious. If someone wants to contribute he's welcome.
There have been extensive talks with Electronic Arts about various things, including Source Code and Support. I'm not allowed to speak about details, but let's just say we're very happy with EA currently.
Regards,
mac
| Quote: |
danpaul88: buggy bugs brenbot because buggy befriends brainlessness
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Fri Nov 29 19:31:48 MST 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01485 seconds
|
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
.
