Home » Tiberian Technologies / Blackhand Studios » Tiberian Technologies Forum » Fixing... Points?
| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346990 is a reply to message #346988] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 14:14   |
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cmatt42
Messages: 2057
Registered: July 2004
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General (2 Stars) |
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| kong009 wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 16:08 |
the only people who want it are the people developing the patch, and you are the minority.
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I'm not developing anything, let alone the TT patch. I don't think you're actually reading anything, or you're grossly exaggerating facts and figures to suit your opinion. I still want to see some solid reasoning from this "majority" of players against it.
GunKataGaming.net
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #346991 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 14:17 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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Bleh, this has been discussed, I don't feel like another 9 pages of this. During beta it will be tested and decided. Until then: topic closed, just like the other one.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347052 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sat, 16 August 2008 23:26 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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To say that the majority of the community is against the points fix is a blatant falsification of non-existent data. My server is still one of the most popular servers and I've been running the fix on my server for over a year now. If the majority of the players didn't want the fix, quite obviously my server would be dead.
You are also arguing the ladder in its CURRENT STATE. This is a bad argument as well. The formula used to calculate the ladder will be revamped as part of the TT projects.
- Player Count
Even the current ladder takes that into account so why mention that?
- Starting Credits
Since all players have the same starting credits, there is no need for this to impact the ladder score.
- Time Limit
Even the current ladder takes that into account so why mention that?
Weapons Drop
- Provide clear and distinct evidence that SSGM weapon drop benefits one team over another and this feature can be one of the things that disqualifies a server to be on the ladder.
Special Crates
- I agree that special crates shouldn't let a server compete on the ladder.
Ped Beacon
- Provide clear and distinct evidence that ped beacons benefit one team over another and this feature can be one of the things that disqualifies a server to be on the ladder.
Donate restrictions
- We are already considering imposing donate restrictions for competing on the ladder.
Since there is no dispute that the points fix balances the game and that unfixed servers provide a disadvantage for certain sides on certain maps, I don't see why it should even be argued at all that servers that want to operate in a way that disadvantages one team should be able to compete on a properly configured skill-based ladder.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347053 is a reply to message #347052] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 00:01 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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^^ I concur with most of this post... most.
- Player Count
Even the current ladder takes that into account so why mention that?
yes, although I have been mulling over the idea of having a player 'cap' of, say, 40 - servers bigger than that could absolutely still be laddered, but the top players would get their ladder as though the server was 40-players big.
that's just my own thinking though, I haven't consulted anyone else about that yet so don't take it as set in stone.
- Starting Credits
Since all players have the same starting credits, there is no need for this to impact the ladder score.
THIS is the bit I must disagree with. I've made the point many times (mostly on n00bstories forum) that starting credits misbalance the game quite a bit. less than 150 or so is OK, more than that and you just get arties too fast, which basically trumps everything. GDI needs to delay arties in order to survive, and they can only really do that when the starting credits are low.
in the ladder-team private forum I've long advocated having a max starting credits of 150 for laddered servers; any more than that and Nod's gonna win the significant majority of games, just you watch.
- Time Limit
Even the current ladder takes that into account so why mention that?
^ true
Weapons Drop
- Provide clear and distinct evidence that SSGM weapon drop benefits one team over another and this feature can be one of the things that disqualifies a server to be on the ladder.
hmmmm.... debatable, perhaps...
Special Crates
- I agree that special crates shouldn't let a server compete on the ladder.
amen to that
Ped Beacon
- Provide clear and distinct evidence that ped beacons benefit one team over another and this feature can be one of the things that disqualifies a server to be on the ladder.
absolutely true. they don't misbalance the game at all unless it's a very small game (like 6 players or less)
Donate restrictions
- We are already considering imposing donate restrictions for competing on the ladder.
amen to that. !donate in the early game is just wrong, it totally changes the way the game is played (far more so than the pointsfix does). early !donate simply shouldn't be in laddered games... certainly the first five minutes.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Sun, 17 August 2008 00:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347057 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 01:52 |
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Donate
Yeah, donating in the first 5 minutes = APC rushes every game. This means whichever team has the higher count of server regulars and/or skilled players (IE, whichever is more likely to get faster !donate teamwork going) will probably win the game due to a successful early APC rush.
!donate after the first 5 minutes is fine (Try Jelly servers for an example of this, I'm sure there are others)
Marathon servers
These are going to have to find alternative credit earning systems. TBH, it's fairer on new players to have a constant stream of credits (slow, and not-ref dependant, say 1 cred per 2 sec) as well as Ref (if it's alive) etc. This is more easily understood by someone new, who will think "Oh, I get a constant income + more if I have a ref and harvester etc". Imagine not understanding Ren's gameplay fully (and it's complex, which is why we all play I'm sure) and then finding that your whole team (who are sniping the enemy harvester, what... "SNIPING THE ENEMY HARVESTER?!") have more credits then you do. That makes no sense to a newcomer, who will become frustrated with the lack of credits, and leave.
Non-marathon servers
I will simply mention again the issue with people buying mammoths (or anything else expensive, but not effective) and then getting yelled at for making an investment that doesn't pay off (not that they were aware, standard PC game gameplay, and standard C&C gameplay can revolve around powerful units (IE: Mammoths. Yes, it can revolve around more, less powerful units, but that's not the point here) therefore the person who just picked up ren, having played some other game will think "I'll save for that pretty $1500 mammoth and go pwn Nod". What happens:
NewPlayer01: "I've got a mammy"
People who are used to points imbalance: "YOU IDIOT. GTFO!"
Ok, I might have overdone the reaction, but the reaction is not exactly friendly, few I imagine take the time in a time constrained game to explain that mammoths aren't worth it and the new player is left feeling confused and unwelcome. Should we encourage that?
Renguard is a wonderful initiative
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| halokid wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 08:46 |
| R315r4z0r wrote on Mon, 11 October 2010 15:35 |
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the hell is that?
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347073 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 04:41 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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!donate restrictions should be set in relation with starting credits! Donate is absolute fair in the first minutes of a 8v8 game with 0 starting credits! There's still a game start with 0 characters and balance between Nod and GDI.
!donate in starting minutes only disbalances the games when there's starting credits and/or a huge amount of players that would all donate to the same player (read: doesn't happen in public servers).
I'm simplifying it a bit, but it's the principle that counts for me: !donate restrictions should be set in relation with starting credits.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347076 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 06:24 |
=HT=T-Bird
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Registered: June 2005
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Colonel |
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A formula that could be tried for computing donate restrictions based on starting credits: donate restrict time (in minutes) = starting credits/50. Easy enough, no?
Also note that donate restrictions may not apply to all servers (BI1 will not let you donate starting credits  so a time based donate restriction isn't needed for that server to be laddered).
I'm surprised nobody mentioned taking sniper/co-op/CTF/DM/... servers off the ladder, although it should be done. Sniper games are very low-scoring and unreflective of AOW performance (and yield very few ladder points anyhow), while Co-Op games tend to yield insane amounts of points for killing loads of bots, which skews ladder scoring in the opposite direction.
Finally, as far as modified crates go, are you talking about crates beyond the Renegade stock set (ammo refill/100-200 credits)? Or are you talking about non-SSGM crates? The former would leave, like, 1 server (TK2) on the ladder, while the latter might just tick a few people (BC?) off.
HTT-Bird (IRC)
HTTBird (WOL)
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BlackIntel Coder & Moderator.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347080 is a reply to message #347076] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 06:58 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
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Colonel |
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Crimson, I mention it because I believe that you are crossing logical points with your arguments, and aren't looking at the bigger picture.
Please explain to me what the "pointsfix" does to balance the ladder. As I've always understood it, it simply allows a SINGLE person to receive more points than they should, which artifically inflates the way their skill looks based on the current ladder. As it stands, points trump everything, that is the main goal, that is how you get ladder points.
If your argument is that the pointsfix unfairly balances a "team" on a certain map, you're goign to have to explain that a little better, I'm having a hard time invisioning how one team would have an easier time shooting at the harvester on a map early in the game, or how only one team of snipers can shoot at tanks all game.. that argument seems a little shallow.
Regardless, the ladder isn't representative of a "teams" skill.. it ranks "people". I'm sure there are some maps that people feel don't allow them to win, and some sides on some maps that they would never play. How will you provide a means to ensure that they don't leave these games, so their ladder isn't negatively affected?
And, how you can say that "the current ladder already takes care of that" is beyond me. I do understand that you are changing the way the ladder works, but since no one is explainging how, we're left to discuss what we know. and right now, there is no way you could convince me that the top scorers on the ladder do not come from high player count, no time limit servers. They always have; and if you believe that the "current ladder already takes care of that" then I can only assume you're not sitting down thinking of how you can eliminate the bias that the current ladder has for these servers.
People will find a way to exploit even your new ladder. They will realize that they need to kill a certain number of people, as well as score a certain number of points, and that they will get a skill bonus based on how many tanks or buildings they kill, etc.. Then they'll still leave the games that don't provide them with the best layout of these items.
As for weapons drop? How many points do I get for killing a sakura in a game? The way it is, a shitload compared to some of the other things I could be doing.. If I don't even have to buy a weapon, not earn or spend a single credit, and I can still be given the opportunity to pick up someone elses sniper rifle and start taking down 1000 credit chars from across the map. How on earth can you wonder how this can unfairly affect my score, and at the same time dig your heels in about the miniscule points the average players gets without the pointsfix? Like I said in a previous post, your arguments are disingenuous at best.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347104 is a reply to message #347099] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 11:16 |
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Herr Surth
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Registered: July 2007
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| trooprm02 wrote on Sun, 17 August 2008 13:08 |
Just an interesting fact....with the points fix, you would get more points for killing a sakura than a stank. If this points logic makes sense, then you must be pro-pointsfix. If not, then....
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Wow, did you think that up yourself?
Another interesting fact: In Renegade, a Patch costs more than a Gunner. If this makes sense, you must be pro renegade!
I TOTALLY dont know what I wanted to say with that, anyway, Spoony already refuted that on cw.cc (you know, where you read that argument and thought "WOW LOL MAYBE I CAN CONVINCE NOBS ON RENEGADE FORUMS WITH IT").
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347105 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 11:16 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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A sakura is more expensive than a stank... I didn't test if what you said is correct, though.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347114 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 11:40 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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It was in reply to the points u get for killing sak >< stank
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347141 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 13:28 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9738
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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I don't know what you're on Troop, but I sure would like to have some of it. It seems to be a very powerful drug as u don't make any sense at all.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347150 is a reply to message #347080] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 14:08 |
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Spoony
Messages: 3915
Registered: January 2006
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General (3 Stars)
Tactics & Strategies Moderator |
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as for the points for killing a stank vs the points for killing a sakura:
with the pointsfix, you get 10% of what the unit cost. thus, 99/100 (rounded down?) for a sakura and 90 for a stank.
this is true for all units except free infantry. the harvester doesn't have a cost, obviously, but is worth 100 to the team that kills it.
I've seen quite a few people say: it's ridiculous that you get more points killing a sakura than a stank. well, if you think that, you MUST BELIEVE that stanks are 'worth' more... in which case, why aren't you asking for stanks to be more expensive or sakuras to be cheaper?
i've asked that about a dozen times, haven't had an answer yet...
| msgtpain wrote on Sun, 17 August 2008 08:58 |
Please explain to me what the "pointsfix" does to balance the ladder.
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it makes the game much fairer, it means the game is decided by which team actually did more damage and achieved more, instead of being decided by which team spent more time pointlessly shooting stuff they don't damage (i.e. ramjets vs heavy vehicles, and the like)
it means attacking bases is more significant than just hanging back and killing tanks which come near your own base, which clearly should be the case.
it also means Field and Under are fair now; previously, GDI had a pretty easy time on Field and a pathetically easy time on Under.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347188 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 16:11 |
kong009
Messages: 17
Registered: August 2008
Location: Oklahoma
Karma: 0
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Recruit |
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To my knowledge, I have not falsified or exaggerated ANY of the figures I said before. Your server having a large number of players on it with the pointsfix in place is an anomoly, because from what I've seen in the Jelly community is an exponential decline in players on AOW1, our only pointsfix server, until Jelly stepped in and made changes to the gameplay that make it a completely different server.
You have data that clearly indicate the unpopularity of the pointsfix, yet you don't acknowledge it or attempt to find solutions that everyone will be happy with. I see that as YOUR responsibility, since you are attempting to make this a mandatory patch.
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347190 is a reply to message #347188] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 16:30 |
gkl21
Messages: 238
Registered: May 2006
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| kong009 wrote on Sun, 17 August 2008 18:11 |
To my knowledge, I have not falsified or exaggerated ANY of the figures I said before. Your server having a large number of players on it with the pointsfix in place is an anomoly, because from what I've seen in the Jelly community is an exponential decline in players on AOW1, our only pointsfix server, until Jelly stepped in and made changes to the gameplay that make it a completely different server.
You have data that clearly indicate the unpopularity of the pointsfix, yet you don't acknowledge it or attempt to find solutions that everyone will be happy with. I see that as YOUR responsibility, since you are attempting to make this a mandatory patch.
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If the pointfix was on before AND after the changes, then clearly the issue was not the pointfix, but the addition features a server has. Unless I just read that wrong, that is what you basically stated.
(I have been told it has been on before and after).
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347200 is a reply to message #346858] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 17:36 |
Homey
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Location: Canada
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General (1 Star) |
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Player count had been declining since PF was put on the server, it had continued to decline until Jelly made changes, I believe.
Homey
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| Re: Fixing... Points? [message #347201 is a reply to message #347200] |
Sun, 17 August 2008 17:46 |
gkl21
Messages: 238
Registered: May 2006
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| Homey wrote on Sun, 17 August 2008 19:36 |
Player count had been declining since PF was put on the server, it had continued to decline until Jelly made changes, I believe.
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Nonetheless, the pointfix was on before and after, thus it was addition settings that made players join / leave.
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