Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » An opinion piece - Donating
| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264639 is a reply to message #264638] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 13:21   |
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Spoony
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...against an orca pilot who sucks, but you wrongly believe to be a skilled orca pilot?
How the FUCK can you be forced to retreat from a 500 sniper as an orca, let alone be destroyed by one... I simply cannot understand.
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264649 is a reply to message #264643] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 14:01 |
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Spoony
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| StealthEye wrote on Sat, 09 June 2007 15:33 |
In open field, yes, the orca would win, but a skilled sniper can simply shoot and hide again. Then the orca is down in no time with relatively little damage to the orca. Orca's aren't invincible, you make it sound that way.
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A skilled orca pilot will not lose to a 500 sniper NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE 500 SNIPER IS.
| StealthEye wrote on Sat, 09 June 2007 15:33 |
And if you think that is (at least mostly) true, then shouldn't your opinion piece be about orcas instead of donating?
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no, because by the time a non-donating team has an orca, the opposite team also can afford its counter: apaches and ramjets, barring superior harrassment.
It has nothing to do with orcas being overpowered, and everything to do with orcas being available sooner than they should be.
| StealthEye wrote on Sat, 09 June 2007 15:33 |
Also, do you have any argument on nonflying maps?
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How many examples do you want?
Complex, Volcano, Canyon: GDI APC blocks.
Typically, Nod has a fair chance of getting money quickly enough so that they can deploy an artillery before a GDI APC arrives on the airstrip. If they don't, GDI has a massive advantage. This is balanced and dependent on which team performs harrassment better.
Donating completely changes that to "which team sits in their base and types the donate command", therefore COMPLETELY CHANGING THE ECONOMY SYSTEM, THEREFORE COMPLETELY CHANGING THE GAME.
Mesa: Fast anti-harvester
Once again, whether GDI or Nod gets their tanks in the cave faster is dependent on harrassment - killing and protecting the harvesters, and the crate. This is entirely dependent on which team is better organised and has better pistol ability, and that team can gain a massive advantage. But hey, if I was donated for an artillery straight away and you didn't donate too, do you know how long it'd be before you could afford a med tank? I'll give you a clue: about five minutes. Do you have any idea what the two teams' relative financial and points situations will be by then? We'll have arties all over the cave and the side covered, LONG before you have med tanks, and you won't pull the game back from that.
Not because we harrassed better, but because we donated and you didn't.
Field and Under: same principle as Mesa
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264668 is a reply to message #264591] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 14:46 |
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Crimson
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| puddle_splasher wrote on Sat, 09 June 2007 09:18 |
| Crimson wrote on Fri, 08 June 2007 14:39 |
I have found overall it's more enjoyable to the majority of people to give them 350 credits each and donate capabilities which lets everyone get into the action right away.
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Personally, I believe 350 is TOO high. Instant hotty/tech and very few players want to leave the buildings to assist in support for the vehicles. All that in the name of a rec.
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In a competitive game, I agree that the opening rush with no money is important to the outcome of the game, and even donating at the start is probably not very fair either, but as a public server owner, I watch what my players say they want. I've tried 0, I've tried 100, I've tried 200, I won't try 300 because it means buggy for Nod and no humvee for GDI... but 350 is the number that lets the game get underway, and this thread in my forums is filled with my regulars who like it that way.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264691 is a reply to message #264145] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 17:09 |
StealthEye
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Yes, they can get things quicker, so can the other team. It really boosts the game speed a bit, but the point is, if you would do it later on in the game, you would have EXACTLY the same problems. Do you even play games where donate is on, as it is on at the BI servers and I really never had any problems with things being unbalanced because of it. Yes, some people get an orca directly, but it really doesn't make them win the game or kill any building or make many more points.
Also, I wasn't really asking for you arguments on other maps, I was merely pointing out how you are talking about the orca's only, and how invincible they are.
Sure, you say it completely changes the game. It might indeed change (mostly the start) of the game. Your point being? Mods like donations are MADE to change the game. A mod would really fail if it would change nothing. Whether you like this change is up to you, but the fact that it changes it is in itself not a bad thing. Duh! Can it be even more obvious how false that argument was?
You keep forgetting the fact that with donate on, the other team can do it too. You are comparing things like "say one team donates, and the other does not". That's like comparing "say one team uses vehicles, and the other does not". Is it really weird that it is unbalanced then?
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264774 is a reply to message #264691] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 22:29 |
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Spoony
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| StealthEye wrote on Sat, 09 June 2007 19:09 |
Yes, some people get an orca directly, but it really doesn't make them win the game or kill any building or make many more points.
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They're doing something quite bafflingly wrong if it doesn't.
| StealthEye wrote on Sat, 09 June 2007 19:09 |
You keep forgetting the fact that with donate on, the other team can do it too. You are comparing things like "say one team donates, and the other does not". That's like comparing "say one team uses vehicles, and the other does not". Is it really weird that it is unbalanced then?
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You're pretty slow if you can't work this one out. The point behind the "if one team donates and the other doesn't" is to prove how overpowered it is, and how it is uncounterable save by doing exactly the same thing.
One last time:
The mod introduced a new "strategy" (for want of a better word) into the game, and the only way to counter this "strategy" if your opponent does it is to do exactly the same yourself.
If that isn't enough to prove it's overpowered and unbalanced, I don't know what will be. You can't say cheating's balanced because the other side can do the same as their only way to fight back 
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264786 is a reply to message #264145] |
Sat, 09 June 2007 23:13 |
IR4p3dy0u
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In response to the 15 soldiers vs 14 soldiers and 1 orca comment,
14 soldiers and 1 orca would pretty much destroy 15 soldiers. Im not going to downgrade public server players here nor your strategies, but have you ever played in an actual clanwar, say an organized game? Play against some of the people spoony and myself play against on a daily basis, soldiers vs. orca pilot who is even remotely descent = dead soldiers PERIOD.
All I can say is thank god clanwars.cc is no donate.
Personally donate values unskilled players who arent willing to work at earning a win, they want everyone else to donate the credits theyve earned by attacking. Therefore they arent willing to do anything, they want everything handed to them.
Sorry if this was already mentioned, didnt care to take the time and read all the bickering.
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StealthEye wrote on Sat, 09 June 2007 19:09
Yes, some people get an orca directly, but it really doesn't make them win the game or kill any building or make many more points.
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For an example. Walls_Flying take 15 vs 15 for example, GDI donates and gets 2 or even three orcas in the air, 3 orcas can easily hold down NODs whole base, easily kill a building or two, even if nod gets GDIS harvy, by the time they kill the harvy, they have 2 or three orcas camping thier strip, making it almost pointless to buy a vehicle, prolly lost a building or two, so tell me how that doesnt win a game?
[Updated on: Sat, 09 June 2007 23:18] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264836 is a reply to message #264805] |
Sun, 10 June 2007 02:26 |
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Spoony
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Buggies aren't the problem, GDI soldiers kill them pretty fast, plus by the time they actually get to the GDI base GDI can afford hotwires.
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264889 is a reply to message #264874] |
Sun, 10 June 2007 07:10 |
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Spoony
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| StealthEye wrote on Sun, 10 June 2007 07:57 |
However I have stated that I think it is not uncounterable by other units.
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But you haven't supported this belief and it's wrong.
| StealthEye wrote on Sun, 10 June 2007 07:57 |
What if Renegade did not support vehicles originally, and it was modded to support them. It would be the same situation, vehicles can only be coutered effectively by vehicles (7 infantry vs 6 apcs + nuke?) Now are vehicles unbalanced with respect to infantry? Perhaps. But is that a problem? No, not imo anyway. Donate vs no donate is unbalanced, yes. But that doesn't make it a problem. As long as GDI vs Nod is not unbalanced and the gameplay is good. (Which is discussable, but I think it is). Simply stating that it is unbalanced proves nothing.
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what about stating that it's unbalanced AND unintended by the designers AND uncounterable save by doing exactly the same thing AND the fact that not everybody thinks "the gameplay is good"? I happen to think it's a step of about five miles in the wrong direction.
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264893 is a reply to message #264145] |
Sun, 10 June 2007 07:15 |
StealthEye
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- what about stating that it's unbalanced
Sure, state it, but you have no arguments other than comparing two uncomparable things (donating vs no donating).
- AND unintended by the designers.
That doesn't make it bad. What are mods made for again?
- AND uncounterable save by doing exactly the same thing
Read my vehicles analogy.
- AND the fact that not everybody thinks "the gameplay is good"?
Like I said, that is discussable, not everyone says it's bad either.
- I happen to think it's a step of about five miles in the wrong direction.
You do, I don't.
[edit]
Forgot this:
- But you haven't supported this belief and it's wrong.
I did explain myself, you didn't say anything more to prove it false. You have the same kind of belief in the opposite opinion.
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[Updated on: Sun, 10 June 2007 07:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264897 is a reply to message #264893] |
Sun, 10 June 2007 07:22 |
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Spoony
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| StealthEye wrote on Sun, 10 June 2007 09:15 |
- what about stating that it's unbalanced
Sure, state it, but you have no arguments other than comparing two uncomparable things (donating vs no donating).
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uh... did you even read the first post, or just skim through it until you found a fraction you could argue against?
| StealthEye wrote on Sun, 10 June 2007 09:15 |
- AND unintended by the designers.
That doesn't make it bad. What are mods made for again?
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It's a potential argument against it. It isn't enough not to do it, but it's something to consider. Westwood designed the game's economy system and they did a damn good job of it. Donate changes that, and strategically speaking, not for the better.
If your statement is like Crimson's: "ok, maybe not ideal for competitive clan games, but my server's community prefer it this way", I can't touch it. If it's "it's better gameplay and more balanced", prepare to be ripped to shreds.
| StealthEye wrote on Sun, 10 June 2007 09:15 |
- AND uncounterable save by doing exactly the same thing
Read my vehicles analogy.
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The vehicles analogy is a waste of text space, because vehicles were implemented by Westwood.
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| Re: An opinion piece - Donating [message #264925 is a reply to message #264145] |
Sun, 10 June 2007 09:23 |
StealthEye
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I read through your first post, yes. And I read all of your other posts closely. I told you that I am not convinced by your arguments for this, and yet you are trying to convince me in your previous post based on stating it is unbalanced. Therefore that means nothing. You are trying to convince me that it's unbalanced, simply stating that doesn't make it any more logical.
The Westwood did not intend this is not a potential argument to me at all. Westwood did really good, but I won't say there is nothing that can be improved. Donating could be such thing, although I already said that I am not a big fan of it in organized games either.
My statement is something in between Crimson's and Gozy's. I did not say it is better gameplay in organised games, I said it is faster gameplay in public games. That I like, again, in public games. I am not stating it is better balanced, but I'm not saying it is less balanced either. I really don't think it changes much to the balancing.
It is not a waste of text space. Please consider it seriously instead of reusing your "westwood did not intend it" argument. IF renegade would not have vehicles, THEN what would you say about vehicles implemented by a mod? Probably the same as you are doing now. That's what my point is. Whether Renegade had vehicles in the first place doesn't matter to that point at all.
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