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| Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237504] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 00:41  |
fl00d3d
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General (1 Star)
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First off, I know for a fact that this is going to stir up quite a bit of arguments -- so I want to point out early in the thread that I am NOT doing this to start problems. I just wanted to bring an issue to light and see how others felt about it.
As many of the folks at clanwars.cc have found out recently:
--Two convicted cheaters are being allowed to return to the league
--Someone who cheated on a public server under Crimson's name is not being banned on clanwars.cc and is instead getting a forum ban for one month
The argument on clanwars.cc was "Do you think this is fair to have convicted cheaters return to the league and do you think that cheating on a public server should earn you a ban in the clanwars.cc Renegade league?". Many people felt that since the two cheaters have done their time, they should be given another chance. They also, for the most part, felt that cheating on public servers isn't a big deal since pub. servers are a joke to them and they could care less about them.
My argument was that I do not think a cheater should ever be unbanned under any circumstance, and that if you cheat on a public server you should be banned in every way/shape/form possible ... including on the clanwars.cc Renegade league. This belief worked up a lot of people on clanwars.cc - but I stand firm to it to this day.
Clanwars.cc players are going to argue: the punishment was fair, they did their time, and life moves on. People screw around on public servers but its not a big deal since its not an official clanwar.
Pub. players are bound to think that is a load of shit.
So what do you guys think? Am I over-reacting or making too big of a fuss over this, or is the Renegade league wrong to be this lenient on convicted cheaters?
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237509 is a reply to message #237504] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 01:05  |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
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My take on the matter is pretty simple:
First offense --> Perma ban
Fuck 'em. Nobody has a right to play games online; it's a privilege contingent on not ruining the experience for everyone else. None of that three strikes crap- nobody cheats by accident. I could see if a newbie used a glitch exploit or something not knowing what it was, but it takes some sort of conscious thought to take a cheat of some kind and install it to use with your game.
Doesn't matter what sort of server they were playing in; if they were cheating while playing with other human players then they need to be dealt with. Players who frequent public servers deserve a cheat-free game too.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237514 is a reply to message #237504] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 01:40 |
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Spoony
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| fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 01:41 |
As many of the folks at clanwars.cc have found out recently:
--Two convicted cheaters are being allowed to return to the league
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...under strict conditions and observation
| fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 01:41 |
--Someone who cheated on a public server under Crimson's name is not being banned on clanwars.cc and is instead getting a forum ban for one month
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We've never, ever banned players from the league for stuff that didn't happen in a league match. That's what the clan league is - it relates to clan matches, not public servers. Even the forum ban wasn't standard procedure until I made it so a couple of months ago.
| fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 01:41 |
The argument on clanwars.cc was "Do you think this is fair to have convicted cheaters return to the league and do you think that cheating on a public server should earn you a ban in the clanwars.cc Renegade league?". Many people felt that since the two cheaters have done their time, they should be given another chance. They also, for the most part, felt that cheating on public servers isn't a big deal since pub. servers are a joke to them and they could care less about them.
My argument was that I do not think a cheater should ever be unbanned under any circumstance, and that if you cheat on a public server you should be banned in every way/shape/form possible ... including on the clanwars.cc Renegade league. This belief worked up a lot of people on clanwars.cc - but I stand firm to it to this day.
Clanwars.cc players are going to argue: the punishment was fair, they did their time, and life moves on. People screw around on public servers but its not a big deal since its not an official clanwar.
Pub. players are bound to think that is a load of shit.
So what do you guys think? Am I over-reacting or making too big of a fuss over this, or is the Renegade league wrong to be this lenient on convicted cheaters?
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Long before I saw the light, I was a moderator on N00bstories. I recall banning someone (I forget his name) who cheated against DrkXFactr's clan in a clan match. Crimson and DaveGMM unbanned them because the offence wasn't in N00bstories. Do you agree with that, then?
As for 'this lenient', the current policy on cheating is stricter than it has ever been, and it's also much fairer than any public server I can think of, because we don't ban people without conclusive evidence.
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237527 is a reply to message #237514] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 04:06 |
fl00d3d
Messages: 1107
Registered: August 2003
Location: Iowa, USA
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General (1 Star)
Viva la Resistance! |
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| MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 03:40 |
Long before I saw the light, I was a moderator on N00bstories. I recall banning someone (I forget his name) who cheated against DrkXFactr's clan in a clan match. Crimson and DaveGMM unbanned them because the offence wasn't in N00bstories. Do you agree with that, then?
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No, I do not. tbh, I don't agree with the BHS policy of "donate and we'll unban you" either. Fuck the cheaters. Keep them banned. We have years of struggle and drama as a community because of them - why unban them for ANY reason?
| MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 03:40 |
As for 'this lenient', the current policy on cheating is stricter than it has ever been, and it's also much fairer than any public server I can think of, because we don't ban people without conclusive evidence.
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I understand that its stricter than ever and I understand that you don't tolerate cheating, etc. I'm not saying that. It's not my intention to argue with you or flame you over this -- and I think you believe that is my purpose. I just think you're being too lenient with your "stricter" policy and that you should go balls to the wall and keep them banned and ban a cheater ANYWHERE in your league. If I ever end up playing that guy in a clanwar, it will be in the back of my mind that he could be cheating ... even if he's not ... and that paranoia is brought on by people not banning them properly the first time. It's just not fair to the community - and I don't see it as "just" in the league, either. Matter of opinion, I guess. I'm just very gaming ethic -oriented.
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237547 is a reply to message #237504] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 06:12 |
MexPirate
Messages: 883
Registered: March 2006
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I don't think robo and baller should be unbanned - cheating in a cw is worse than cheating in any public server imo and when proof is found they shouldn't ever be unbanned.
You can't really draw the comparison between the league and cw.cc though tbh, things are very different I am banned from several servers because i "cheat" I don't care there are plenty more, there is only one league however and public play isn't really an option for some people when they realise that there is NO competition in a public server. Cheating in a public server shouldn't earn a permanent league ban, a lot of members don't give a shit about public server and have their own beef's for whatever reason, however retarded that is it isn't anything to do with the league that would just be imposing additional punishment simply because the people concerned are well known in the community.
It's a mexican pirate .... F*ck a dog by Blink 182
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237548 is a reply to message #237504] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 06:52 |
fl00d3d
Messages: 1107
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Location: Iowa, USA
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General (1 Star)
Viva la Resistance! |
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Rather than looking at it from the perspective of "the pub. players/servers suck" look at it from the perspective of "cheating is wrong". I understand your point - and tbh, I almost agree from that perspective. But I think the larger issue her is about cheating. Even if they did get banned for nothing ... even if the server owner is a moron ... and even if the gameplay there is the worst anywhere ... I still don't think that gives someone the right to cheat. Some kind of effective punishment for cheating would prevent them from acting foolishly like that in the first place. Further, what if their luck just ran out and they finally got caught cheating - but it happened to be on a pub. server instead of a clanwar? Lets use radar hack as an example since its hard to detect ... would you want to risk that in the league?
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237554 is a reply to message #237504] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 07:28 |
MexPirate
Messages: 883
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Colonel |
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At the end of the day you just have to accept the fact that people will always have varying views on this sort of thing, Spoony has to sit in the middle taking shit from both sides, some saying he is too lenient and others say he is too strict. To me that says he is getting the balance right and finding the middle ground.
The league should be trying to work as the cw.cc players want it to, I believe your views on the matter fall in the minority of players there and the majority would support the action that has been taken.
I really couldn't give a shit what players who do not play in the league think on the matter as it has nothing to do with them and it doesn't affect them.
Also don't forget that players can simply refuse to play games against certain players if they wish - I won't play against robo or baller because I don't think they should be playing, you don't have the same power to choose your opponents in a public game. If you feel SS should be banned, don't play him and allow others to make their own judgement.
It's a mexican pirate .... F*ck a dog by Blink 182
[Updated on: Sat, 06 January 2007 07:34] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237584 is a reply to message #237548] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 11:57 |
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Spoony
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| fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 07:52 |
But I think the larger issue her is about cheating. Even if they did get banned for nothing ... even if the server owner is a moron ... and even if the gameplay there is the worst anywhere ... I still don't think that gives someone the right to cheat.
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I fail to see why my refusal to ban a player without conclusive evidence of their cheating, like so many public servers do, gives players the 'right' to cheat.
| fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 07:52 |
Some kind of effective punishment for cheating would prevent them from acting foolishly like that in the first place.
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SS didn't cheat in a server I have authority over, so the question becomes: who am I to enforce that penalty? Who gave me the power to dish out a penalty for something that happened outside of my 'jurisdiction'?
SS got a punishment (albeit completely ineffective) by Crimson banning his serial for admin impersonation. Of course, in the same thread she said he can just get a new serial, and I guarantee that isn't how I'd run the show when it comes to banned players... but I digress.
| fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 07:52 |
Further, what if their luck just ran out and they finally got caught cheating - but it happened to be on a pub. server instead of a clanwar? Lets use radar hack as an example since its hard to detect ... would you want to risk that in the league?
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SS didn't get 'caught' cheating, he wasn't trying to hide it, he wasn't using the cheat to make himself look like a better player than he was...
If you asked me what's more pathetic:
1. someone being so insecure about their skills on a COMPUTER GAME that they feel the need to cheat to convince people they're elite (best example I can think of is Jschultz)
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2. someone using final ren and whatnot for fun
I'd say 1 and I think most of Clanwars.cc would agree with me. Don't get me wrong, '2' is stupid too and I'll penalise that as well, but '1' is just the bottom of the barrel and SS didn't do that.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237598 is a reply to message #237504] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 13:27 |
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Goztow
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In public servers, 20 - 40 players get touched by the cheating, in a clanwar only 4-8. I'd say cheating in public servers is way worse than in a clanwar (about 5 times worse, if u follow my reasoning).
Once a cheater, always a cheater, doesn't matter where. The moment you touch other gamers with your cheats, you should get a xwis serial ban, just like it happens in RA2 and the other c&c-games Xwis actually does support.
Spoony: a cheater using FR in a clanwar shouldn't get banned, if I follow your reasoning? He's just having fun!
Edit: and if someone gets banned from cw.cc, how do u know he ain't coming back under a different nick, ip and ren serial?
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
[Updated on: Sat, 06 January 2007 13:31] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237602 is a reply to message #237598] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 14:20 |
MexPirate
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| Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 14:27 |
In public servers, 20 - 40 players get touched by the cheating, in a clanwar only 4-8. I'd say cheating in public servers is way worse than in a clanwar (about 5 times worse, if u follow my reasoning).
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I have encountered many cheaters in public servers, sure they are annoying but they get banned from the server easily and next map it hasn't affected anything. Cheating in a clanwar to gain points on a league and potentially prizes whilst attempting to appear better than you are in front of people who know you is worse in the eyes of most of the cw community and as we are referring to a cw.cc ban it is their opinions that are paramount.
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Once a cheater, always a cheater, doesn't matter where. The moment you touch other gamers with your cheats, you should get a xwis serial ban, just like it happens in RA2 and the other c&c-games Xwis actually does support.
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I am still inclined to agree with you here, this particular incident is slightly different but I would totally support that as long as 100% evidence could be seen.
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Spoony: a cheater using FR in a clanwar shouldn't get banned, if I follow your reasoning? He's just having fun!
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It wouldn't happen, nobody not even Lacostey is that dumb and yes they would receive a ban instantly from the league. However as we both know it is not so much the type of cheat but the reason for using it which is the issue.
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Edit: and if someone gets banned from cw.cc, how do u know he ain't coming back under a different nick, ip and ren serial?
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if someone can change their nick, ip and serial then I don't think there is much anyone can do to stop them playing renegade, cw.cc would have the best chance imo as people talk/play each other and would likely pick up on suspisions that it is a banned player quicker than someone playing on pubs.
It's a mexican pirate .... F*ck a dog by Blink 182
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237606 is a reply to message #237598] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 14:39 |
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Spoony
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| Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:27 |
Once a cheater, always a cheater, doesn't matter where. The moment you touch other gamers with your cheats, you should get a xwis serial ban, just like it happens in RA2 and the other c&c-games Xwis actually does support.
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I am actually ahead of you on this.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:27 |
Spoony: a cheater using FR in a clanwar shouldn't get banned, if I follow your reasoning? He's just having fun!
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I don't know how you came to this conclusion. It can't possibly have been from actually reading and understanding my post, nor could it be from precedent, so please explain how you came to such a ridiculous conclusion.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:27 |
Edit: and if someone gets banned from cw.cc, how do u know he ain't coming back under a different nick, ip and ren serial?
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I've been running leagues at clanwars.cc for a while, and not just Renegade. Let me explain the pattern 95% of the time.
1. Someone cheats or pointpushes
2. I ban them
3. They try to sneak back into the league
4. I catch them ALMOST IMMEDIATELY and ban them again, reset their clan, and suspend the players who harboured them
5. They repeat step 3
6. I repeat step 5
Steps 3-6 repeat until the cheater finally gets the message. I ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE YOU that my leagues are better in that regard than ANY public server, and I've got the track record to illustrate it.
And I say again: unlike the vast majority of public servers, step 2 doesn't happen unless step 1 has been conclusively proven.
Anything else?
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Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237612 is a reply to message #237607] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 15:01 |
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Spoony
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| Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 21:41 |
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I am actually ahead of you on this.
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Care to elaborate?
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Not yet. Soon, hopefully.
| Goztow wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 21:41 |
And I swear you edited your post (but I could be wrong).
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You are, indeed, wrong.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
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1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237616 is a reply to message #237504] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 15:17 |
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Crimson
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The cheater in question was caught on MULTIPLE servers using either instant kill or instant repair with a repair gun and being rather obvious about it. There is no question as to whether this person was cheating or not, and it was on multiple servers, ruining the game for dozens of players. Even one kill or one repair that wasn't gained fairly can turn the tides and change the entire course of the game. It shouldn't be shrugged off.
I know that no one was stupid enough to think it was actually me cheating, but I feel bad that someone's childish attack on me hurt so many players. :\
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237617 is a reply to message #237527] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 15:21 |
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Crimson
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| fl00d3d wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 04:06 |
No, I do not. tbh, I don't agree with the BHS policy of "donate and we'll unban you" either.
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That's a joke policy, not a real one. I've never actually gotten any money donated for that. LOL
Besides, the ban was for using a bypass that we caught automatically. If they tried to use it again, they would have been re-banned before they even got back onto a server with it.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237622 is a reply to message #237616] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 15:28 |
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Spoony
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| Crimson wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:17 |
The cheater in question was caught on MULTIPLE servers using either instant kill or instant repair with a repair gun and being rather obvious about it. There is no question as to whether this person was cheating or not, and it was on multiple servers, ruining the game for dozens of players. Even one kill or one repair that wasn't gained fairly can turn the tides and change the entire course of the game. It shouldn't be shrugged off.
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Who's shrugging it off? I think I've made it pretty clear that I don't...
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Sat, 06 January 2007 15:29] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237630 is a reply to message #237622] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 15:46 |
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IronWarrior
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Well anyone refusing to ban a cheater in any server, is a fucking shit stain upon life and therefore should get shot in the head alongside the cheating bastard.
Fuck cheaters, ban them from everything.
So I agree with fl00d3d.
I would like to know the names of the two cheaters please so I can ban them in servers that I mod, thank you.
[Updated on: Sat, 06 January 2007 15:51] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237638 is a reply to message #237630] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 16:30 |
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Spoony
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| IWarriors wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:46 |
I would like to know the names of the two cheaters please so I can ban them in servers that I mod, thank you.
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BalleRJv
Robo
^^ click the links for evidence.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
Renedrama [ren-i-drah-muh]
- noun
1. the inevitable criticism one receives after doing something awful
[Updated on: Sat, 06 January 2007 16:32] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237639 is a reply to message #237638] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 16:34 |
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IronWarrior
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| MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 17:30 |
| IWarriors wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:46 |
I would like to know the names of the two cheaters please so I can ban them in servers that I mod, thank you.
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BalleRJv
Robo
^^ click the links for evidence.
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Thank you, after reviewing what the topics, they been banned, also found they was already banned in one or two servers already.
Good game.
[Updated on: Sat, 06 January 2007 16:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237654 is a reply to message #237622] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 18:50 |
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Crimson
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| MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:28 |
| Crimson wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:17 |
The cheater in question was caught on MULTIPLE servers using either instant kill or instant repair with a repair gun and being rather obvious about it. There is no question as to whether this person was cheating or not, and it was on multiple servers, ruining the game for dozens of players. Even one kill or one repair that wasn't gained fairly can turn the tides and change the entire course of the game. It shouldn't be shrugged off.
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Who's shrugging it off? I think I've made it pretty clear that I don't...
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I didn't say you did. Read my words again ("It shouldn't be shrugged off.") and don't put other ones in my mouth.
| MaidenTy1 wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:30 |
| IWarriors wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 16:46 |
I would like to know the names of the two cheaters please so I can ban them in servers that I mod, thank you.
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BalleRJv
Robo
^^ click the links for evidence.
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I'm sure he wants the names and IPs of SS so they can ban him, too. He goes by JohnDoe on here.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Treatment of convicted cheaters [message #237699 is a reply to message #237504] |
Sat, 06 January 2007 20:52 |
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luv2pb
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Not everything is as it appears
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I don't get this debate.
What clanwars does is no ones concern but theirs. If they allow a proven cheater (past or present) to play in their leauge then it only matters to the officials and players of that leauge IN that leauge. If n00bstories bans someone for cheating in another server that is our business and our right. It doesn't effect anyone else.
N00bstories Director Of Operations
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