Home » Renegade Discussions » Tactics and Strategies » Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??)
| Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #233958] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 05:38  |
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crazfulla
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Registered: September 2006
Location: Aotearoa
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Disabling Pedistal "End Game" Beacons:
- Encourages point, n00bjet and APC whoring.
- Removes much of the need for teamwork to win.
- Tips the game drastically in favor of GDI.*
- Is just a sad response to getting owned.
* Particularly on maps like Under, Field, Hourglass.
I don't know why servers disable pedistal beacons, nor why people complain about them. They are a legitimate part of C&C mode and always have been. Try learning how to DEFEND and stop whining like a little baby just because you get owned. Some people just don't know how to balance offence and defence and get owned, then they bitch about it. Fact is, you are the only one looking like an ass. Hero units in C&C generals and superweapons in other C&C games can turn the tide of a battle. Quick and easy ways to cripple the enemy if they fail to balance thier technique are a benchmark in C&C games. The peds are exactly such. If you can't defend your base and just go out point whoring, then you deserve to lose IMO. Both teams can win via pedistal beacons - if GDI is winning by points and the airstrip is destroyed say on walls, GDI CAN ALWAYS PED THE HAND! there is no reason to say ped beacons in that situation favor Nod. Sure it is the easiest way for Nod to win, but it is still fair to BOTH sides as EITHER can do it. If everyone on GDI is point whoring a crafty ped nuke would end a game that would otherwise be drawn out for like half an hour (depending on the server). If you want people to point/n00bjet/APC whore less, ENABLE PED BEACONS. I like the saying "Point whoring never pays" well because of those who disable ped beacons, now it does... in long boring games where GDI always wins via points.
I've been meaning to do that for a while lol. Just my opinion, don't mean to offed anyone or anything. Server admins you are of course free to do what you wish with your servers, but this is my arguement.
| "GEoDLeto wrote:" |
so what you are saying it is gonna take even longer before this thing is finished
So the topic title should be changed to: a sucky little "teaser" from C&C Reborn has been released
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| "halo2pac wrote:" |
Unless they are girls, I am not going to bone them.
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[Updated on: Wed, 13 December 2006 05:43] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234015 is a reply to message #233958] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 14:32  |
fl00d3d
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The common argument for more "pro" players (take that how you will) is that the pedestal gives the opponent a chance to win the game regardless of points or the building/vehicle situation ...... which they feel is a more accurate representation of victory.
I have mixed feelings on this, but I think an agreeable setup would be:
PUBLIC SERVERS = pedestal on
CLANWARS = pedestal off
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234019 is a reply to message #233958] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 15:05 |
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Sniper_De7
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| crazfulla wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 06:38 |
Disabling Pedistal "End Game" Beacons:
- Encourages point, n00bjet and APC whoring.
- Removes much of the need for teamwork to win.
- Tips the game drastically in favor of GDI.*
- Is just a sad response to getting owned.
* Particularly on maps like Under, Field, Hourglass.
I don't know why servers disable pedistal beacons, nor why people complain about them. They are a legitimate part of C&C mode and always have been. Try learning how to DEFEND and stop whining like a little baby just because you get owned. Some people just don't know how to balance offence and defence and get owned, then they bitch about it. Fact is, you are the only one looking like an ass. Hero units in C&C generals and superweapons in other C&C games can turn the tide of a battle. Quick and easy ways to cripple the enemy if they fail to balance thier technique are a benchmark in C&C games. The peds are exactly such. If you can't defend your base and just go out point whoring, then you deserve to lose IMO. Both teams can win via pedistal beacons - if GDI is winning by points and the airstrip is destroyed say on walls, GDI CAN ALWAYS PED THE HAND! there is no reason to say ped beacons in that situation favor Nod. Sure it is the easiest way for Nod to win, but it is still fair to BOTH sides as EITHER can do it. If everyone on GDI is point whoring a crafty ped nuke would end a game that would otherwise be drawn out for like half an hour (depending on the server). If you want people to point/n00bjet/APC whore less, ENABLE PED BEACONS. I like the saying "Point whoring never pays" well because of those who disable ped beacons, now it does... in long boring games where GDI always wins via points.
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"- Encourages point, n00bjet and APC whoring."
no
"- Removes much of the need for teamwork to win."
Not even close, what teamwork do you need to ped beacon? your team repairs while one person is able to win the game? How boring/stupid/repetitive, unlike winning with tanks, which you need skill and teamwork to overcome the other team
"- Tips the game drastically in favor of GDI.*"
Uh, how so? First you say both teams can do it so it's both fair, and then you say it gives GDI an advantage?
"- Is just a sad response to getting owned."
and again, no. It is not getting "owned" because one man was able to nuke the pedestal and "win" the game. What if some guy who mined disconnected and the mines disappeared? What if some guy on your team is overmining and you lose mines? What if you just have bad spawns if you try and get to the ped?
As for the excuse that it's "part of renegade" I don't see you complaining about making servers friendly fire, no building repair, and full radar mode. Because they're all "part" of renegade. However, they're STIPULATIONS, that are just different kinds of playing, so complaining about why a server wouldn't allow it because "it's part of the game" is just dumb.
And don't even dare compare generals to renegade ever again. There are super powers in other C&C games though, and you've already seen it - They're called NUKES and IONS. I don't remember playing my C&C games and winning the game if I place a nuke in a specific spot on a building. The point of the nuke and ion are already drastic super weapons that can kill a building or multiple buildings with a single one. A lot easy to do than killing a building being repaired by tons of techs.
As for "pointwhoring" That's just a term some public server morons made up for getting destroyed by tanks. There's a reason why they buy tanks - It's because they're what decides games.
To draw off that, I'd like to say a team that took more teamwork to organize to buy some tanks and rush and kill buildings of the opposing team, and managed to kill more buildings than them, they deserve to win more than a person on the other team managing to get a nuke to the ped, when you know you mined it before hand, but when you get there too late you notice that some guy overmined and you lost just because ONE person overmined, and ONE person who took that to their advantage by nuking the pedestal. Yeah, That's a sure-fire cool way to win a game. The entire effort of the whole team was ruined by one person on it. You somehow think this is fair?
Now this is just my personal opinion but I believe tank fights/battles show the most skill and teamwork than any other thing in renegade. They're also the most fun for me, because for one thing, you don't have to deal with the lag of people shifting back and forth. I just believe the *team* that bought the most tanks and had the most skill, and also the most teamwork aught to win, EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. And I think that's the way it should be.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
[Updated on: Wed, 13 December 2006 15:06] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234020 is a reply to message #234015] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 15:11 |
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Goztow
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Location: Belgium
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Goztoe |
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| fl00d3d wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 22:32 |
The common argument for more "pro" players (take that how you will) is that the pedestal gives the opponent a chance to win the game regardless of points or the building/vehicle situation ...... which they feel is a more accurate representation of victory.
I have mixed feelings on this, but I think an agreeable setup would be:
PUBLIC SERVERS = pedestal on
CLANWARS = pedestal off
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seconded.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234022 is a reply to message #233958] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 15:41 |
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Sniper_De7
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Why should public servers agree to have pedestal on? You give a reason that clanwar servers shouldn't. You failed to give a reason why a public server should have it any more than one that is for clanwarring. I think the server owners of a public server should pick whichever they want and stick to it. I think it's a more fun game, or at least, a more realistic way of saying which team is better. However server owners can do as they choose, and given the fact that in public servers you will get more people abusing the mines, that it could even be more incentive to disallow ped beacon.
Oh, and I also failed to say why it doesn't encourage APC/sniping/"point" whoring.
The reason I'd say would be the fact that most people on a public don't even know if the ped is even on. And even if they did, I don't remember in my 4 and a half year "career" of renegade, of ped beacon influencing me to buy a sniper to whore points, a tank to whore points, or an apc to whore points. In fact I've done all three, on servers with and without. Granted, I don't ever do snipe whoring unless for drastic measures (Say on Field the other team is sniping my artillery with like 5 snipers, I'm going to buy a sniper, kill them, and then instead of buying a whole new vehicle I'm just going to do what they do, pointwhore off tanks. Not saying it's fair, but I don't see server owners fixing it so that you don't get points for shooting vehicles with a ramjet. I've also done the same for APC whoring, granted I only use an APC to whore for points on maps that I know are going to last the entire duration. Generally, Under.mix. As for tank-whoring I've already explained that people buying tanks and shooting a building is not "whoring" for points, for one it keeps the other team busy repairing. For another, it gives their own team more points, which in certain maps is VITAL to winning (Hourglass). Take for example Field though. You're Nod and you have 2 arts and 3 light tanks on the field, you're shooting the war factory and you know they have at least 3 med tanks in their base. Should you continue to shoot the warfactory so that they have to keep repairing in order to save it, or should you rush in, with the three lights, to get killed by the med tanks and consequently lose the field.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234037 is a reply to message #234022] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 17:15 |
Nglegs
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Registered: September 2006
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Well it comes down to the attitide you can get when your winning,lets be realistic If GDI has Barr and Say ref, and Nod just has PP there is very little chance NODS gonna win by rushing PP unless GDI are chimps, so the beacon gives them another way to work with. Often when I play on a team that is down by alot of points and suddenly wins due to beaconing the first thing to come out of at least 1 player the next game is'You N00bs we should have won that game" Should have? no. Now If a player just wants to rush the Ped as soon as the game starts I dunno why hes playing, becuase it takes the fun out of it. but if the chips are down and its your last chance to win go for it.
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234053 is a reply to message #233958] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 20:21 |
fl00d3d
Messages: 1107
Registered: August 2003
Location: Iowa, USA
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Viva la Resistance! |
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de7, its because pub servers are nowhere near the skill level and team cooperation level of a clanwar (lol though I have seen some pub servers that have better random players on their side than some clans...). For that reason I made a general assertion that on public servers, I could understand the pedestal being on.
Not to mention, most clanwars these days are 2v2 up to 8v8 or so. Very rarely do you see the higher numbers. Whereas the public servers usually have at least 14-16 players in them at any given time. At least the semi-successful ones.
I guess my logic has brought me back to expand on my initial summary to include: "larger games make the pedestal more interesting". But I definitely agree with your explaination of how the pedestal is normally abused and how hard-working teams lose because of it. I never walk into a public server expecting a challenge.
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234068 is a reply to message #233958] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 21:28 |
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Sniper_De7
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Location: Wisconsin
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What I'm trying to get at is that I wanted to know what real incentive does a guy have for putting the pedestal on, and why, according to some, it *should* be turned on, or more so in publics? So you say it's more interesting, but I hardly find it any more interesting, all it means is that a team loses from a pedestal beacon from a team that either lost their mines to a teammate or he disconnected or just didn't mine. There is no relevance to other c&c games where there are spots where you just win a map by nuking a little ped beacon. The fact that there are ions and nukes are enough super powers. Considering you can kill 2 or 3 buildings at once if you place them right on some maps. I feel there's an indifference, that it just depends on the server owner, though there may and probably is reasoning behind it (Like, for example, all the things I said about how one person could ruin the game, or how they also believe a team that has more cooperation than the other should always be the victor in a game than one where a single guy is able of winning it single-handedly.
I can see a clear-cut reasoning why clanners wouldn't allow it
I can't see a clear-cut reasoning why publics would allow it (I guess aside from being "interesting", which I hate since the last times i heard some guy saying somethign was "interesting" was Harvesters on the wrong team - shotgunners on wrong team, god crates, and much other shitty mods. I would encourage no building repair before I would ped beacon - You hardly see it and it's a completely different style of playing, of course it's more suitable for GDI, but what maps aren't. It can still be fun.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234078 is a reply to message #233958] |
Wed, 13 December 2006 22:40 |
fl00d3d
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Viva la Resistance! |
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It's interesting in public servers because when the quality and quantity figures (number of players, and the skill level of the players) is so high ... throwing an extra variable in there makes it more "interesting" (likely for the tide to turn) -- and in the end it doesn't really matter who wins cuz its just a pub game.
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234092 is a reply to message #233958] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 01:07 |
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Goztow
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Goztoe |
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It should be turned on in public servers (and in bigger clanwars IMO) because it is another option both teams need to consider in attack/defence. It makes the game a bit more open which is a good thing.
And i even think this is true for high skilled people playing a rather big (6v6+) clanwar. In smaller clanwars, I'm not that convinced it should be on because the game is open enough in my eyes.
Bit hard to explain, I hope you understand what I mean.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234105 is a reply to message #233958] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 05:10 |
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Sniper_De7
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You're saying that it creates a different aspect of playing. However, I don't see this should influence on why a server should or should not enable it. The idea in clanwars is that the team with the most skill and the most teamwork should always win. If say the game was Volcano and the losing team was Nod and all they did was save enough for a nuke while and then they rushed after losing say three of their buildings and then nuked the pedestal, which would you say deserves a win more? Why should one nuke/ion be any more special than the others? I'd say GDI defended more than Nod if three of their buildings died. But because of a little stipulation you can lose by ONE nuke?
Anyways my point is that GDI should have won, because they're the ones that managed to kill more buildings than Nod. The idea that one single person can win a game, regardless of the number of buildings that team has, regardless the amount of effort and teamwork the team had and regardless of the skill the team had. Why *anyone* should base a win off of such a thing doesn't make very much sense to me. I don't see a difference in the number of players because having one or two players or 10 players it doesn't make a difference that someone shouldn't have to go back, or defend a base from a single nuke or ion. The team should be able to choose if they think they can deal with just one building being destroyed rather than not knowing if it's on the pedestal and losing from a single nuke/ion. Not to mention a lot of those public servers have donate on making it especially easier to do a ped beacon, and all you need are TWO sbhs and you could easily get in the barracks. If you want different though and different strategies, I'd promote no building repair. Try camping on Under with no building repair and see how long you could last
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234159 is a reply to message #233958] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 12:45 |
fl00d3d
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You're still talking about competitive play, though, de7.....
In the public servers (and I know you know this) the level of competition is nowhere near that of a pro clanwar and there are a lot more people. If the pedestal is enabled, that forces people to be on their toes more and be a little more wise about base defenses --especially on the smaller maps. Noob to use? I personally think so; regardless of the situation. A feature that many pub. server players seem to enjoy? Yes. And for that reason many server owners enable the feature. I've had to compromise a lot of my personal feelings on gameplay for the sake of my users. For that reason, I have recently thrown up RenUnderground :: OldSchool AOW on a000000H which has no donation, no crates, no drop mod, 0 starting credits, 18 player max, and pedestal off. 90% of the community would find that boring -- which is why these features are normally enabled. But when you join an "oldschool" server such as this one, you expect more professional gameplay which is why the settings are the way that they are.
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234165 is a reply to message #233958] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 13:20 |
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Sniper_De7
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I personally don't care that much. I feel pretty much any time a game was won by a ped beacon that the other team should have won. I doubt anyone really knows if the majority like ped on or off, or if people even care so much. I just wanted the creator of the topic to tell me why he thinks a server owner SHOULD have it on. I don't see what the problem is if it's off. he says because it makes people pointwhore and whatever else he said, and he was wrong.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234267 is a reply to message #233958] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 21:49 |
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crazfulla
Messages: 667
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Location: Aotearoa
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I know what ya mean. I love smaller games ^_^ kekeke
And you re-enforced my point...if a team really is "PRO" they should know to defend thier pedistal. If you can't, then what does that say about you? I don't mind if someone else nukes the pedistal and gets a cheap win when versing me in like a 1v1, if I've killed 3/4 of thier buildings I still get the MVP rec at the start of the next round. Real pros shouldnt givea flying monkey about it only nubs whine when they lose and blame everyone but themselves. Some people are just arogant though and don't like it when someone else gets the win when they've been point whoring all game. Often on n00bless newmaps, myself and USBsatan verse eachother 1v1 to get the server started, and quite often (particularly on non-defended maps) its a race to get the ped. You should have seen what we did once on minesTS, every mine permitted under the limit was on or around the ped....lol
| "GEoDLeto wrote:" |
so what you are saying it is gonna take even longer before this thing is finished
So the topic title should be changed to: a sucky little "teaser" from C&C Reborn has been released
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| "halo2pac wrote:" |
Unless they are girls, I am not going to bone them.
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[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 21:50] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234276 is a reply to message #233958] |
Thu, 14 December 2006 23:08 |
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crazfulla
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Does your house have a computer terminal which destroyes the whole building?
When was the last time a military soldier was able to cloak from the naked eye?
Since when did the military construct an orbital weapons platform?
Renegade IS unrealistic. 
My pet peves include people blocking my taqnk when im retreating for repair, people who spam I Need Repair when they are perfectly capable of doing it themselves and long boring one sided point whore games. Bugger all you can do about the first two, but as for the third.... NUKE THE PED! lol. But I see where you're coming from.
| "GEoDLeto wrote:" |
so what you are saying it is gonna take even longer before this thing is finished
So the topic title should be changed to: a sucky little "teaser" from C&C Reborn has been released
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| "halo2pac wrote:" |
Unless they are girls, I am not going to bone them.
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[Updated on: Thu, 14 December 2006 23:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234285 is a reply to message #233958] |
Fri, 15 December 2006 00:43 |
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Goztow
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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I'd rather say on in big (7v7+) servers, off in small.
Who the hell would want to play in a 30v30+ server anyway.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234299 is a reply to message #234267] |
Fri, 15 December 2006 03:14 |
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Spoony
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| crazfulla wrote on Fri, 15 December 2006 15:49 |
I don't mind if someone else nukes the pedistal and gets a cheap win when versing me in like a 1v1, if I've killed 3/4 of thier buildings I still get the MVP rec at the start of the next round.
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You talk about pros and nubs, and yet you think having the MVP rec is more important than winning.
Wow.
Unleash the Renerageâ„¢
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234304 is a reply to message #233958] |
Fri, 15 December 2006 04:17 |
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Sniper_De7
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No this guy talks about OWNING. HE JUST OWNS. HE IS THE PWNERER.
Anyways, no there is no MCT in a building but irregardless there is no spot in the C&C Universe that if you use a nuke/ion/weather storm/whatever the fuck, that you automatically win. It would make the game BORING."Well, they should have killed me before I could have made it possible to nuke that spot, if they were "pro" that's what they would have done"
Just dumb.
edit: in case you haven't gotten my point yet, stop saying "owning", "pro" or "nub". You're terrible at renegade and I'm almost sure that you wouldn't even know what to do if you were in a 4v4 against a good team on a map like field.
"Buy flame tanks?"
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
[Updated on: Fri, 15 December 2006 04:22] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Ped Beacons (n00by or teh pwn??) [message #234360 is a reply to message #233958] |
Fri, 15 December 2006 12:06 |
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crazfulla
Messages: 667
Registered: September 2006
Location: Aotearoa
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Re: Sniper_De7, A little FYI, point whoring does not always get you the win.
Re: Goztow, I agree completely. I play for fun, and for the win. Not for points or kills or recs or ladders like some people. Larger games where people pointwhore for half an hour aren't exactly my idea of 'fun'.
| "GEoDLeto wrote:" |
so what you are saying it is gonna take even longer before this thing is finished
So the topic title should be changed to: a sucky little "teaser" from C&C Reborn has been released
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| "halo2pac wrote:" |
Unless they are girls, I am not going to bone them.
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[Updated on: Fri, 15 December 2006 12:35] Report message to a moderator |
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