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| Re: Jesus [message #215576 is a reply to message #215568] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 09:56   |
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warranto
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| Dover wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 10:22 |
History has proven things like:
-DNA testing for parental testing
-Electron microscopes
-Those brain-activity-measure-doohickies
-Telescopes
-Radios
-Wireless internet routers
-Electricity
-Hard drives
To hold truth almost all the time. The same cannot be said for God.
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Oh? You mean youre going to believe what someone said, in some book? YOU have not proven it, therefore all you can do it take the word of someone else, who could very much be lying in some sort of grand scheme.
DNA is only available as proof, if you believe the person interpreting the results of an experiment, that you did not do, is correct.
the measurement of brain activity in no way proves a conciousness exists. It just measures... brain activity.
Telescopes prove nothing, other than you can see what the telescope tells you to see. You didn't follow it through the production stage, so you have no way of knowing if what you say is true. It could very well be a large-scale lie in order to get you to believe something is a certain way.
Radios also prove nothing. You have no way of knowing if it is "radio waves" that are transmitting the voice, or some sort of magic. You must rely on what someone else told you that things are they way THEY say they are.
Once again, you have not proven that electricity exists. You are chosing to believe what someone else told you about it's existance. For all you know, it could, once again, be magic that makes things run.
Hard drives are simply a device that we are told is used to store data. We don't actually know if data is being written to it. We simply choose to believe what someone else told us about it. For all you know, it could be little creatures that can only carry small things, and those creatures are what transport the "data" to our screen.
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and what I ment with I don't believe in things I cannot see/feel etc, is like "god".
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Sorry, that excuse doesn't work. Modifying your reasoning to create exceptions, just to make yourself right, in no way gives your argument credibility. In fact, most people who do that are considered to be dillusional, and often end up requiring psychological help.
It would be the same thing as using the following as a defence against murder.
You: "I killed that guy, but it wasn't murder."
Judge: "Why?"
You: "Because that guy is exempt from being murdered, because I say so. Only if someone else was killed would it be murder!"
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| Re: Jesus [message #215588 is a reply to message #215579] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 11:48 |
runewood
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But thier reasoning cant be proven wrong and nor can yours. Its like is star wars a good movie, is cake good, ect. It cant be proven one way or the other. So even if u argue with with for years nothing will change.
"Don't try to be a great man, just be a man. Let history make it's own judgments."
"Maybe its not the destination that matters, but the journey."
"How many people does it take before its wrong? A thousand? Fifty thousand? A million?"
"Im not here to tell you how it is going to end, Im here to tell you how it is going to begin."
"Its not the end or even the beggining of the end, mearly the end of the beggining."
"Logic is the beginning of wisdom; not the end."
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| Re: Jesus [message #215619 is a reply to message #215576] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 14:14 |
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Dover
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| warranto wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 09:56 |
| Dover wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 10:22 |
History has proven things like:
-DNA testing for parental testing
-Electron microscopes
-Those brain-activity-measure-doohickies
-Telescopes
-Radios
-Wireless internet routers
-Electricity
-Hard drives
To hold truth almost all the time. The same cannot be said for God.
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Oh? You mean youre going to believe what someone said, in some book? YOU have not proven it, therefore all you can do it take the word of someone else, who could very much be lying in some sort of grand scheme.
DNA is only available as proof, if you believe the person interpreting the results of an experiment, that you did not do, is correct.
the measurement of brain activity in no way proves a conciousness exists. It just measures... brain activity.
Telescopes prove nothing, other than you can see what the telescope tells you to see. You didn't follow it through the production stage, so you have no way of knowing if what you say is true. It could very well be a large-scale lie in order to get you to believe something is a certain way.
Radios also prove nothing. You have no way of knowing if it is "radio waves" that are transmitting the voice, or some sort of magic. You must rely on what someone else told you that things are they way THEY say they are.
Once again, you have not proven that electricity exists. You are chosing to believe what someone else told you about it's existance. For all you know, it could, once again, be magic that makes things run.
Hard drives are simply a device that we are told is used to store data. We don't actually know if data is being written to it. We simply choose to believe what someone else told us about it. For all you know, it could be little creatures that can only carry small things, and those creatures are what transport the "data" to our screen.
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If you'll notice, I said that history has proved these things to be true. While I may not be an expert on the way radio waves are supposed to function, I know that when I turn on my radio and tune to a certain frequency, I hear my favorite radio station. I know this, because it has happened every time I turn it on, without fail.
The same with the other things. I know electricity exists, because when I flip the switch in my room a light comes on. Is that switch connected to magic? Are my parents getting a monthly Magic bill? I don't visually survey my hard drive when I install Renegade on it, but I know it's been installed and by whatever means, Renegade's data has been stored on my hard drive. I don't pretend to be an expert in any of these things (Especially the electron microscopes and DNA testing), but I believe they work, because up until now they've worked.
God is a different story. God moves in mysterious ways. God helps those whom he/she chooses. You cannot compare the two at all. All these (modern) technologies that you listed are in measureable quantities and above all, they're consistant. These are two qualities that religions as a whole lack.
So is what I'm saying that I'll become a believer when someone can bottle God? Yes. Not when I touch it, or I see it, or I feel it, but when you can put it in a labratory and examine it and pick it apart. The day preists and other religious leaders stop shrugging their shoulders whenever you ask them something that isn't a default bible-answered question is the day I become a holy-roller.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215620 is a reply to message #215386] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 14:16 |
puddle_splasher
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[quote title=warranto wrote on Sat, 26 August 2006 19:01]
I do. His name was Jesus. I know this because a book, filled with words that I am not able to witness for myself, tells me so.
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If you cannot witness the book that is filled with words, then HOW CAN IT TELL YOU HIS NAME WAS JESUS? therefore what you say and see is a lie, or a made up phalacy. It is but a dream, a story, its but a thought in your interpretation of a misconceived idea.
Have you looked up, yet again "Joshua Of NaZareth" or are you scared to read and see both sides of the coin/story?
[Updated on: Sun, 27 August 2006 14:17] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Jesus [message #215624 is a reply to message #215546] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 14:27 |
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Crimson
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| j_ball430 wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:35 |
Well, to me, God is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. While I don't know this to be true, and cannot further be proven, this is what I accept as truth.
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Thus is the paradox that disproves the combined omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience of this so-called God.
| Dover wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 08:40 |
Religion is cheap. Religion is easy. It gives a simpliestic answer to the near unanswerable.
In response to Hydra's sample Athiest/Theist coversation:
The evidence backing up the religious, creationist answer is no more concrete than the big bang theory. True, I cannot explain how the world came to be, but "The guy up there did it" is just too simple of an answer.
Religion was created by man, taking Christianity as an example (Because it's widespread), The bible was written and published by men. The gospels were men. Their stories were about men. The prophets were men. Jesus is believed to be the son of god, but he was on earth in the form of man. Religion is an institution created by man. So it's absolutely teaming of human error.
I cannot--and will not--spend my life muttering into the sky hoping for things to go my way.
History tells us (Or at least, it tells me) that more harm from good comes from the institution of religion. Therefore I avoid it.
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Dover, that is awesome. I doubt it would sway any religious people into disbelief but it is exactly how I feel about religion.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215634 is a reply to message #215624] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 15:32 |
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cheesesoda
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| Crimson wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 17:27 |
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Thus is the paradox that disproves the combined omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience of this so-called God.
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Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't he desire to have no "evil", be able to prevent it, yet restrain Himself? Is it because that's not your view on how a god should act? If so, who are you to define that which you cannot measure?
It's entirely possible that God chooses to let man have free-will, therefore He restrains Himself from preventing man from having that free-will.
whoa.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215636 is a reply to message #215634] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 15:39 |
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Dover
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| j_ball430 wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 15:32 |
| Crimson wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 17:27 |
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
Thus is the paradox that disproves the combined omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience of this so-called God.
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Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't he desire to have no "evil", be able to prevent it, yet restrain Himself? Is it because that's not your view on how a god should act? If so, who are you to define that which you cannot measure?
It's entirely possible that God chooses to let man have free-will, therefore He restrains Himself from preventing man from having that free-will.
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If such is the case, j_ball, what does God do? Why does he/she exist, if not to guard mankind from evil? If God does nothing, why should mankind worship him/her?
Isn't it also entirely possible that God is a human invention, thought up to explain the unexplainable and give the masses some comfort?
Edit: Looking back, this sounds a bit flimsy. Disregard this post if you'd like...
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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[Updated on: Sun, 27 August 2006 15:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Jesus [message #215645 is a reply to message #215250] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 16:24 |
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NeoSaber
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Quantum physics is premised on the idea that all sub atomic particles are zero dimensional. They are infinitely nothing, yet they are supposed to be the 'building blocks' of reality. How do you build with something that isn't there? In principle, 0+0 equals 1 according to quantum physics. Things that don't have size come together to form size. Things that have no dimension come together to form dimensions. Nothing added to nothing makes something in quantum physics.
When applied to reality, the chaotic frenzy stated to exist by quantum theory doesn't allow gravity to exist. The equations that form quantum physics not only can't explain it, they deny it to be possible. Gravity is the easiest force for a person to test for (drop something), yet quantum physics would deny the possibility.
It's why string theory even came about. Quantum mechanics is so incapable of explaining things, it needs to be replaced.
NeoSaber
Renegade Map Maker at CnC Source
Animator/Compiler/Level Editor/Object Rigger/Programmer for Red Alert: A Path Beyond
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| Re: Jesus [message #215658 is a reply to message #215619] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 18:43 |
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warranto
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| Dover wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 15:14 |
If you'll notice, I said that history has proved these things to be true. While I may not be an expert on the way radio waves are supposed to function, I know that when I turn on my radio and tune to a certain frequency, I hear my favorite radio station. I know this, because it has happened every time I turn it on, without fail.
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But why (or how) does the box the sound come out of get that sound?
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The same with the other things. I know electricity exists, because when I flip the switch in my room a light comes on. Is that switch connected to magic? Are my parents getting a monthly Magic bill?
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They could be. Can you prove that electricity is what we are told it is?
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I don't visually survey my hard drive when I install Renegade on it, but I know it's been installed and by whatever means, Renegade's data has been stored on my hard drive. I don't pretend to be an expert in any of these things (Especially the electron microscopes and DNA testing), but I believe they work, because up until now they've worked.
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It has been installed, but how is it stored?
They work the way they've worked, yes. But that is not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that you don't know HOW/WHY they work the way they do. You simply choose to believe what you are told, seemingly on the principle that it does what they say it does.
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God is a different story. God moves in mysterious ways. God helps those whom he/she chooses. You cannot compare the two at all. All these (modern) technologies that you listed are in measureable quantities and above all, they're consistant. These are two qualities that religions as a whole lack.
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Who says God has no "measurable quantities"? (though that would be the wrong term, after all, even humans have no "measurable quantities"). Perhaps we just haven't discovered the means to "measure" him.
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So is what I'm saying that I'll become a believer when someone can bottle God? Yes. Not when I touch it, or I see it, or I feel it, but when you can put it in a labratory and examine it and pick it apart. The day preists and other religious leaders stop shrugging their shoulders whenever you ask them something that isn't a default bible-answered question is the day I become a holy-roller.
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So, are you saying that because the means to "measure" it are not currently available, you say it does not exist? (Careful how you answer that)
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If you cannot witness the book that is filled with words, then HOW CAN IT TELL YOU HIS NAME WAS JESUS? therefore what you say and see is a lie, or a made up phalacy. It is but a dream, a story, its but a thought in your interpretation of a misconceived idea.
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Err... witness the book? All I have to do is pick it up and read it to tell you that his name was Jesus...
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Have you looked up, yet again "Joshua Of NaZareth" or are you scared to read and see both sides of the coin/story?
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err.. perhaps you can direct me to a specific link? After 10 pages on Google, all I found was that it's another name for Jesus. I fail to see what that has to do with the resurrection (or lack thereof) of someone.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215667 is a reply to message #215634] |
Sun, 27 August 2006 21:51 |
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Crimson
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| j_ball430 wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 15:32 |
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't he desire to have no "evil", be able to prevent it, yet restrain Himself? Is it because that's not your view on how a god should act? If so, who are you to define that which you cannot measure?
It's entirely possible that God chooses to let man have free-will, therefore He restrains Himself from preventing man from having that free-will.
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He's your god, not mine.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215692 is a reply to message #215658] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 01:41 |
puddle_splasher
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Is this all a project for you and your Church?
Are you getting a badge for demonstrating a willingness to discuss religion?
Are you getting a furher badge for imposing on us your interpretation, just as all Jehovahs witnesses and mormons do?
Nothing here is being proven, merely ripped apart slowly but surely like a Jack-Russel with a huge bone.
Yet still you have not answerewd a simple question or are you avoiding it.
You say that you believe in a book that you are not allowed to see? therefore the book could be full of blank pages and still you believe in it?
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| Re: Jesus [message #215694 is a reply to message #215658] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 02:16 |
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Dover
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| warranto wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 18:43 |
But why (or how) does the box the sound come out of get that sound?
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Through some process a radio-wave expert could tell you more about. Although it's true that I'm being told something and I believe it, and I can't say for sure if radio waves exist or not, but for whatever reason, when I turn on my radio I hear good music. I know this and take this to be fact, because it has happened every time I turn on my radio. How can you argue with that? I hear the music. Everyone else who walks into my room hears the music. The effect is consistant with all radios within a mile of mine. Consistancy. Even religious people can't agree on how God works, or doesn't work.
| warranto wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 18:43 |
They could be. Can you prove that electricity is what we are told it is?
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See above.
| warranto wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 18:43 |
It has been installed, but how is it stored?
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See above.
| warranto wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 18:43 |
They work the way they've worked, yes. But that is not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that you don't know HOW/WHY they work the way they do. You simply choose to believe what you are told, seemingly on the principle that it does what they say it does.
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If I had the desire to, I could probably study up on how all these things work. Maybe even learn first hand (Hopefully not with the electricity), but that's not the important part. HOW/WHY is irrelevant. The fact is that they do. All the time. CONSITANCY. It makes no difference if it's called "electricity" or "magic". Those are just words. Labels. In Bulgarian, it's called "Tok", but it refers to the same thing.
| warranto wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 18:43 |
Who says God has no "measurable quantities"? (though that would be the wrong term, after all, even humans have no "measurable quantities"). Perhaps we just haven't discovered the means to "measure" him.
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Humans have measurable quantities. We live, we die. We have a weight and height. We occupy a certain amount of space at one given point in time. We can bench press a certain amount of weight. We can measure how large our muscles are. How many words per minute we type, etc. The list goes on.
You cannot measure God. God does not live or die. Have a height and weight, occupy space or time, have any limit on what he/she bench presses, has no muscles to measure, and doesn't type.
What means could you possibley use to measure God?
| warranto wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 18:43 |
So, are you saying that because the means to "measure" it are not currently available, you say it does not exist? (Careful how you answer that)
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Currently availible is one thing, but God can never be measured. By nature, God is immeasurable because he/she "Exists somewhere out there", and Jesus "is everywhere", like Santa Clause knowing when you're sleeping and when you're awake.
I'm not saying that a means of measuring God is not currently availible. I'm saying that God, by nature, is immeasureable.
| warranto wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 18:43 |
Err... witness the book? All I have to do is pick it up and read it to tell you that his name was Jesus...
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I've read lots of things in my life not, and I've learned that not everything I've read is true. Even works of non-fiction have been falsified. How do you know his name was Jesus? It could have been Bob or Tom or Joe or Dover or Warranto. How do you know?
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215706 is a reply to message #215250] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 05:39 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
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Is this all a project for you and your Church?
Are you getting a badge for demonstrating a willingness to discuss religion?
Are you getting a furher badge for imposing on us your interpretation, just as all Jehovahs witnesses and mormons do?
Nothing here is being proven, merely ripped apart slowly but surely like a Jack-Russel with a huge bone.
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You started the topic....
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Yet still you have not answerewd a simple question or are you avoiding it.
You say that you believe in a book that you are not allowed to see? therefore the book could be full of blank pages and still you believe in it?
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Actually ask a question, and I will attempt to answer it.
I can see the book whenever I want. (Looks over to bible, opens it) Oh? It has pages with words that I can actually see!
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The effect is consistant with all radios within a mile of mine. Consistancy.
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If consistancy is all that matters, people have been quite consistant in the belief that God exists. Far longer than people have been telling us radio waves exist.
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HOW/WHY is irrelevant.
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Sorry, but you're wrong here. How and why are the most important factors of understanding the truth of something. Why do you think people believed that rain was caused directly by a supreme being for so long? No one bothered to answer the why or how for themselves... they just decieded to believe the why and how that someone else of authority told them.
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umans have measurable quantities. We live, we die. We have a weight and height. We occupy a certain amount of space at one given point in time. We can bench press a certain amount of weight. We can measure how large our muscles are. How many words per minute we type, etc. The list goes on.
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Those are aspects of the human. Not the human itself. If you want to use the aspects of something to prove it's measurability, we could use the universe itself to "measure" God. The only problem is, we can not readily identify what God is reponsible for in order to measure it.
The human, itself can not be measured. We are not just chemicals making up a body. There are still a multitude of unkowns that prevent us from measuring ourselves.
Apply this to your next statement as well.
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I've read lots of things in my life not, and I've learned that not everything I've read is true. Even works of non-fiction have been falsified. How do you know his name was Jesus? It could have been Bob or Tom or Joe or Dover or Warranto. How do you know?
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I don't. But then again, how do you know that the person named "George Washington", actually had that name? How do you know that ANY historical figure actually had the name it did. If you question one historical text, you have to question them all.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215707 is a reply to message #215692] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 05:52 |
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cheesesoda
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| puddle_splasher |
Is this all a project for you and your Church?
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So we can't defend our beliefs (and ourselves) without having some alterior motive besides getting you idiots to stop trying to disprove that of which you cannot?
| puddle_splasher |
Are you getting a badge for demonstrating a willingness to discuss religion?
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Again, it's merely defending our beliefs. It's what you're doing in here, too, else you wouldn't be trying to disprove us.
| puddle_splasher |
Are you getting a furher badge for imposing on us your interpretation, just as all Jehovahs witnesses and mormons do?
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Read above.
| puddle_splasher |
Nothing here is being proven, merely ripped apart slowly but surely like a Jack-Russel with a huge bone.
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Nothing's being disproven, either.
| puddle_splasher |
Yet still you have not answerewd a simple question or are you avoiding it.
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What one? The one about raising dead? I think icedog mentioned it, but you just haven't responded. It's answering your question whether or not you choose to respond to it.
| puddle_splasher |
You say that you believe in a book that you are not allowed to see? therefore the book could be full of blank pages and still you believe in it?
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Umm, I can see, touch, caress, kiss, lick, eat, and even smell my Bible. It's very much a physical object that is obtainable. You can do the same thing. You can go to any store like Target, go to the book section, and you'll probably see a Bible. Go ahead, pick it up, open it, read it. Maybe you'll learn something.
whoa.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215713 is a reply to message #215706] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 07:01 |
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Dover
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| warranto wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 05:39 |
people have been quite consistant in the belief that God exists. Far longer than people have been telling us radio waves exist.
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Is that some kind of joke? There are a million and a half religions all with their own idea of how God works, and they defend it to the death. It's truely a rare thing to get two random people together and have them agree on religion. The very fact that we're argueing about this now is proof that religion isn't consistant. Meantioning all the wars fought and attrocities commited because of religions would be overkill.
| warranto wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 05:39 |
Sorry, but you're wrong here. How and why are the most important factors of understanding the truth of something. Why do you think people believed that rain was caused directly by a supreme being for so long? No one bothered to answer the why or how for themselves... they just decieded to believe the why and how that someone else of authority told them.
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You can't compare the rain and radios. Radios are made by man. They're a tool constructed from raw materials for a purpose. Their inventor (a man), and constructor (also a man), would be considered an authority on how the radio works. If you can't believe them, who can you believe?
| warranto wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 05:39 |
Those are aspects of the human. Not the human itself. If you want to use the aspects of something to prove it's measurability, we could use the universe itself to "measure" God. The only problem is, we can not readily identify what God is reponsible for in order to measure it.
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I'll believe it when it happens. How do we use the Universe to measure God? I used to have a pretty crazy imagination when I was younger, but I can't even begin to think of how someone would measure God, let alone using the Universe.
At any rate, humans having measureable aspects is more than you can say for God. You can't even find God, much less measure him/her. How are you going to point at something and say "There, that right there. That's God."
| warranto wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 05:39 |
The human, itself can not be measured. We are not just chemicals making up a body. There are still a multitude of unkowns that prevent us from measuring ourselves.
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No, we're not just chemicals. There's a spark there in a live body that's missing in a dead body. Conciousness, personality. That's what you mean, right? Who says that can't be measured? There are personality tests and other mountains of garbage like that. Dating websites and "See-which-career-is-right-for-you" tests are based on being able to measure personality. It may not be perfect, or even accurate in some cases, but it's a measurement nonetheless.
| warranto wrote on Mon, 28 August 2006 05:39 |
I don't. But then again, how do you know that the person named "George Washington", actually had that name? How do you know that ANY historical figure actually had the name it did. If you question one historical text, you have to question them all.
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The bible has been translated and retranslated more times than either you or I can fathom. I'm sure that there aren't two words next to each other that have been kept the same. No other historical text can boast this, giving the bible a wider margin of error than any other historical text.
If the bible itself did not exist, was never written, all copies were destroyed, or whatever, modern Christianity would not exist. Does that mean that them modern Christian God would not exist? I say he/she would not.
| DarkDemin wrote on Thu, 03 August 2006 19:19 |
Remember kids the internet is serious business.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215717 is a reply to message #215250] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 07:31 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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Is that some kind of joke? There are a million and a half religions all with their own idea of how God works, and they defend it to the death. It's truely a rare thing to get two random people together and have them agree on religion. The very fact that we're argueing about this now is proof that religion isn't consistant. Meantioning all the wars fought and attrocities commited because of religions would be overkill.
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Ugh.. as I said... they ALL believe that God exists. I mean, how many different types of lightbulbs are their? How many different types of electrical current? How many different types of computer processors? IF you're going to argue the particulars of a subject, then NOTHING is consistent. I mean, radio waves have a near infinite type of amplitude and frequency.
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You can't compare the rain and radios. Radios are made by man. They're a tool constructed from raw materials for a purpose. Their inventor (a man), and constructor (also a man), would be considered an authority on how the radio works. If you can't believe them, who can you believe?
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I'm not comparing ancient beliefs of rain and current beliefs of radio, I'm comparing the source of the belief as to how they are. BOTH deal with someone telling someone else how they work, and that recieving person simply believing it at face value.
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At any rate, humans having measureable aspects is more than you can say for God. You can't even find God, much less measure him/her. How are you going to point at something and say "There, that right there. That's God."
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And that proves his lack of existance... how?
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No, we're not just chemicals. There's a spark there in a live body that's missing in a dead body. Conciousness, personality. That's what you mean, right? Who says that can't be measured? There are personality tests and other mountains of garbage like that. Dating websites and "See-which-career-is-right-for-you" tests are based on being able to measure personality. It may not be perfect, or even accurate in some cases, but it's a measurement nonetheless.
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Once again, you're measuring the particularities of a human, not humanity itself.
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The bible has been translated and retranslated more times than either you or I can fathom. I'm sure that there aren't two words next to each other that have been kept the same. No other historical text can boast this, giving the bible a wider margin of error than any other historical text.
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The bible is also considered to be the most accurately and carefully translated text. No other historical text can boast that either.
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/
(Link speaks to how accuracy was a focal point)
If you can't trust the accruacy of the bible, you can't trust the accuracy of ANY translated historical text.
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If the bible itself did not exist, was never written, all copies were destroyed, or whatever, modern Christianity would not exist. Does that mean that them modern Christian God would not exist? I say he/she would not.
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Not quite. The Christian interpretation of God would not exist. The lack of an interpretation does not disprove the existance of anything.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215726 is a reply to message #215386] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 08:40 |
puddle_splasher
Messages: 595
Registered: May 2006
Location: Scotland, UK
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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[quote title=warranto wrote on Sun, 27 August 2006 07:01I do. His name was Jesus. I know this because a book, filled with words that I am not able to witness for myself, tells me so.
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The above is what you said.
My question was:- If you are not able to witness for yourself, a book filled with words, then how can you claim to know what is in it? Afterall that is what you said.
Perhaps you meant to say that you HAVE seen and witnessed a book filled with words, but that is not what you wrote.
Now before we go any further, it should be known that I do not attend church or do any religious things, but I do believe in "A Supreme Being", now if people want to call that person GOD then who am I to say otherwise. God has many names "Jehovah" is but one name for him but I imagine that you knew that.
You say that I didnt reply to "Cryogenics"? I have never heard of anyone being deep frozen on purpose and being thawed out after a considerable period of time and being brought back to life.
Here is another thought, bear in mind that we have "Born again Christians", people that have seen the light.
Is it not possible that this was how Jesus was brought back from the dead (or outside world of disbelievers) and came into a new world, (of believers) one with the light that knowledge brings.
It may all sound figurative, because thats what it is. So for everyone else, figuratively speaking, they may die, fall by the wayside, be led astray, fall upon hardship in life. Only to be born again, after finding Faith in any religion. To see the light in a different way, to see the new world and be born again.
Thus the parable may be interpreted differently, But thats all this is, interpretations.
No amount of discussion can change that. Thats what faith is all about, especially if it brings comfort.
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| Re: Jesus [message #215729 is a reply to message #215250] |
Mon, 28 August 2006 08:52 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
Karma: 0
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General (2 Stars) |
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My mistake, I was speaking in a dialect foreign to you called "legalese"
To witness something written in law means to see it actually being written. (Specifically, a signature).
Applying that to what I wrote, "filled with words that I am not able to witness for myself" means someone wrote the words, but I was not able to see them write it.
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Is it not possible that this was how Jesus was brought back from the dead (or outside world of disbelievers) and came into a new world, (of believers) one with the light that knowledge brings.
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Except that when you take into account that Jesus had been crucified, and then stabbed with a spear and left hanging to bleed out, it's hard to imagine "death" meaning anything other than what it says.
[Updated on: Mon, 28 August 2006 08:52] Report message to a moderator |
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