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Re: hope none of you are them [message #208882 is a reply to message #208794]

Wed, 19 July 2006 14:40

Javaxcx
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Registered: February 2003
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KIRBY-098 wrote on Wed, 19 July 2006 07:11

Humanity is evil. Christ and his teachings are perfect.

Despite being quiet in this thread as to see where it goes, I'm hoping to get a reasoned and well thought out response from you in regrards to the question I'm going to ask.

Up until recently, I've held very similar beliefs to you. I held for a long while an atheist approach to this issue because it made more sense that we are more animal then anything else; that our consciousnesses are merely the sum of the parts by which we are made. A Christian friend and I discussed the flaws in Catholicism, more importantly, the pomp and circumstance that the entire dogma fondles itself with. Then it led to the situation of denominational religion (all based around Abraham's 3 major tendrils) and how the fundamentalists are, if they are right, the ones that their respective "God" would be looking for in the ideal human being. Literally taking their documents word for word in their correct context and application can only be doing exactly what God wants-- word for word, right?
I grew up in a Catholic environment, and even now I still treat the notion of Jesus resurrecting as so phenominal that it is not even something I sit down and reconsider. Whether or not he actually did almost seems to be a non-issue in lieu that if he merely died and did not come back, he was a pretty awesome guy anyway worthy of being rememebered as one of the greatest philosophers humanity has ever produced. After I looked through the Catholic doctrine and found how little of it has Biblical reinforcement, I was more or less swayed into the more fundamental approach that "Christians" hold. That being said, I confess I might have jumped on that boat a bit prematurely. Of course I was immersed in the Bible all throughout school, but I never read it critically as an adult in the fundamentalist context. Suffice to say, it's a pretty big fish to catch.

For example, the story of Samson defies so many fields of probable science that in context, (Bibilical or not) the possibility of it happening is relative to me reaching through my monitor and pulling out a purple monkey dishwasher. Another is the story of Creation, the story of Adam and Eve, and even more improbable, the issue that people lived up in excess of 900 (nine hundred) years before dying. You'll notice that a lot of the Old Testiment is so fantastic that it's like living in MiddleEarth. I researched the issue as to why people believe this is truth by associating "Christian Science" to the equation, but after looking at that such data critically, there are numerous flaws in each of the theories presented. The explanations seem vilify the science practiced today and formulate anew around a very, IMO, dangerous idea that I will tell you in a moment.
The New Testiment is much more believable, and I am more inclined to believe that as it is written, it actually happened very much the way described. This isn't including the issue of miracles and other supernatural happenings which I am quite undecided on because:

The axiomology does not make sense.

That is my primary concern regarding every single organized religion that has ever existed and will exist. Why should I treat the Bible as an objective truth when its existence defies the criteria that would otherwise allow for objective truth? Normally this wouldn't be an issue. I mean, no one really cares about objective comprehension of why doors open and why cola tastes good, but this is a metaphysical issue that demands our absolute obedience to avoid a state of physical pain. That's huge! Much of the Christian literature I read speaks of some kind of divine intervention on their psyche. Frankly, I'm not sure what to make of that. They tell me to give my heart to Jesus (how I'm to do this exactly I've inquired about, but I'm still confused as all fuck), accept salvation (this too I've asked many times and have yet to recieve an answer that makes even comprehendable sense), and read the Bible for objective truth to the issues I have in life. As such, I am now left in a limbo of agnosticism. Logic tells me that God almost certainly exists, but rationality tells me that such a God is not necessarily the one outlined by the pages of the Bible.

My question to you my friend is thus: Why? How?

Not, "Why should I bother", because that is an obvious and extremely arrogant question to even posit. I'm referring to the metaphysical principles that MUST exist otherwise the arguments for Christianity have failed before they start.

How does this even work? I've asked this to my Christian friends and I am always left with a lingering issue regarding the circular tendencies. For example; I've asked how they can come to know God (in the Biblical context, obviously) or Jesus in a truly phenominal way if prior to reading the same words I have read, they were unaware of them. They claim to speak to God on a daily basis as well. I can honestly tell you that regardless of how much I believed in God as a child and teenager, that every time I spoke to God I never recieved any kind of tangible (or intangible) response-- to others this is not true and quite the opposite. Either I was "praying wrong", insane, innocently ignorant, or I was right in bringing these issues of personal, absolute inconsistency up. That being said, as per my understanding, without the Bible, the knowledge of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit would be confined to the leather bound pages next to my monitor. This raises some pretty insane consequences and I'm sure I don't need to elaborate too much on the inductive nature of what I'm talking about. So I'm left with:

Why is this truth? Why is *insert non-biblical doctrine* not truth? Is there a rational non-circular argument to support the objectivity of the Bible? If so, I would truly like to hear it.

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[Updated on: Wed, 19 July 2006 14:42]

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		hope none of you are them By: Torn on Wed, 12 July 2006 23:23
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Berkut on Wed, 12 July 2006 23:45
		Re: hope none of you are them By: PlastoJoe on Thu, 13 July 2006 11:16
		Re: hope none of you are them By: DarkDemin on Sat, 15 July 2006 21:26
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Berkut on Sat, 15 July 2006 21:29
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Dover on Thu, 13 July 2006 00:46
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Viking on Thu, 13 July 2006 02:27
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Mad Ivan on Thu, 13 July 2006 04:22
		Re: hope none of you are them By: reborn on Sun, 23 July 2006 14:23
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Sun, 23 July 2006 17:58
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Jecht on Thu, 13 July 2006 05:49
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Scythar on Thu, 13 July 2006 06:19
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Jecht on Thu, 13 July 2006 09:30
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Thu, 13 July 2006 10:38
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Thu, 13 July 2006 07:48
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mrpirate on Thu, 13 July 2006 09:06
		Re: hope none of you are them By: NukeIt15 on Thu, 13 July 2006 10:39
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Thu, 13 July 2006 11:08
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Thu, 13 July 2006 12:39
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Scythar on Thu, 13 July 2006 14:16
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Thu, 13 July 2006 20:32
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Halo38 on Sat, 15 July 2006 10:56
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mrpirate on Thu, 13 July 2006 15:45
		Re: hope none of you are them By: $c0p3 on Tue, 25 July 2006 19:19
		Re: hope none of you are them By: DarkKnight on Tue, 25 July 2006 19:36
		Re: hope none of you are them By: superj69 on Thu, 13 July 2006 20:37
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Berkut on Thu, 13 July 2006 21:55
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Fri, 14 July 2006 01:51
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Fri, 14 July 2006 06:44
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Thu, 13 July 2006 22:26
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Fri, 14 July 2006 05:59
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Sat, 15 July 2006 05:07
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Sat, 15 July 2006 07:47
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Sat, 15 July 2006 10:40
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Berkut on Thu, 13 July 2006 22:32
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Scythar on Fri, 14 July 2006 01:59
		Re: hope none of you are them By: GrayWolf on Fri, 14 July 2006 02:03
		Re: hope none of you are them By: GrayWolf on Fri, 14 July 2006 01:42
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Scythar on Fri, 14 July 2006 02:24
		Re: hope none of you are them By: GrayWolf on Fri, 14 July 2006 02:37
		Re: hope none of you are them By: GrayWolf on Fri, 14 July 2006 01:58
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Dave Mason on Fri, 14 July 2006 07:07
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Fri, 14 July 2006 07:15
		Re: hope none of you are them By: NukeIt15 on Fri, 14 July 2006 12:58
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Fri, 14 July 2006 13:29
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Scythar on Fri, 14 July 2006 15:03
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Fri, 14 July 2006 17:44
		Re: hope none of you are them By: GrayWolf on Fri, 14 July 2006 20:23
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Fri, 14 July 2006 23:28
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mrpirate on Fri, 14 July 2006 20:38
		Re: hope none of you are them By: icedog90 on Sat, 15 July 2006 00:07
		Re: hope none of you are them By: GrayWolf on Sat, 15 July 2006 00:21
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Sat, 15 July 2006 01:04
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Sat, 15 July 2006 07:50
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Berkut on Sat, 15 July 2006 09:24
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: Berkut on Sat, 15 July 2006 09:32
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Scythar on Sat, 15 July 2006 09:44
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Sat, 15 July 2006 10:19
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Sat, 15 July 2006 10:32
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Sat, 15 July 2006 17:53
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Sat, 15 July 2006 18:25
		Re: hope none of you are them By: GrayWolf on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:08
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mrpirate on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:18
		Re: hope none of you are them By: NukeIt15 on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:44
		Re: hope none of you are them By: GrayWolf on Sat, 15 July 2006 12:56
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Scythar on Sat, 15 July 2006 13:42
		Re: hope none of you are them By: icedog90 on Sat, 15 July 2006 14:27
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Scythar on Sat, 15 July 2006 14:48
		Re: hope none of you are them By: icedog90 on Sat, 15 July 2006 15:06
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Hydra on Sat, 15 July 2006 16:36
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Sniper_De7 on Sat, 15 July 2006 17:58
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Berkut on Sat, 15 July 2006 18:53
		Re: hope none of you are them By: IronWarrior on Sat, 15 July 2006 19:43
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Sat, 15 July 2006 18:57
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Berkut on Sat, 15 July 2006 19:12
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Sat, 15 July 2006 19:12
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Hydra on Sat, 15 July 2006 23:03
		Re: hope none of you are them By: GrayWolf on Sun, 16 July 2006 02:04
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Sun, 16 July 2006 02:53
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Sniper_De7 on Sat, 15 July 2006 19:40
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mrpirate on Sat, 15 July 2006 21:28
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Sun, 16 July 2006 11:48
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Doitle on Tue, 18 July 2006 00:55
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Tue, 18 July 2006 05:37
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Doitle on Tue, 18 July 2006 11:35
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Tue, 18 July 2006 12:45
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Tue, 18 July 2006 12:57
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 13:27
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Tue, 18 July 2006 15:24
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:01
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:19
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Tue, 18 July 2006 17:13
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 17:16
		Re: hope none of you are them By: NeoSaber on Tue, 18 July 2006 17:27
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 17:30
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 13:19
		Re: hope none of you are them By: NeoSaber on Tue, 18 July 2006 14:30
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Tue, 18 July 2006 13:14
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Tue, 18 July 2006 13:29
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 13:37
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Tue, 18 July 2006 13:42
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 13:54
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Tue, 18 July 2006 14:08
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mrpirate on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:26
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Sniper_De7 on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:44
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:48
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:28
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:54
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 16:55
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Tue, 18 July 2006 17:11
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Tue, 18 July 2006 17:03
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 18 July 2006 17:12
		Re: hope none of you are them By: cheesesoda on Tue, 18 July 2006 17:27
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Tue, 18 July 2006 19:32
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Tue, 18 July 2006 19:46
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Tue, 18 July 2006 21:04
		Re: hope none of you are them By: NukeIt15 on Tue, 18 July 2006 20:23
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Wed, 19 July 2006 04:11
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Javaxcx on Wed, 19 July 2006 14:40
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Wed, 19 July 2006 15:14
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Sun, 23 July 2006 19:56
		Re: hope none of you are them By: NukeIt15 on Wed, 19 July 2006 11:05
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: reborn on Mon, 24 July 2006 12:34
		Re: hope none of you are them By: jnz on Sun, 23 July 2006 21:39
		Re: hope none of you are them By: jnz on Sun, 23 July 2006 21:47
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mrpirate on Sun, 23 July 2006 22:36
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Hydra on Sun, 23 July 2006 23:38
		Re: hope none of you are them By: jnz on Mon, 24 July 2006 06:11
		Re: hope none of you are them By: JohnDoe on Mon, 24 July 2006 01:12
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Mon, 24 July 2006 05:03
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Mon, 24 July 2006 09:14
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: DarkKnight on Mon, 24 July 2006 15:36
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Mon, 24 July 2006 17:45
		Re: hope none of you are them By: DarkKnight on Tue, 25 July 2006 06:51
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 25 July 2006 08:02
		Re: hope none of you are them By: DarkKnight on Tue, 25 July 2006 11:44
		Re: hope none of you are them By: DarkKnight on Thu, 27 July 2006 06:30
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Tue, 25 July 2006 08:45
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 25 July 2006 09:04
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Tue, 25 July 2006 09:26
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Tue, 25 July 2006 09:46
		Re: hope none of you are them By: JohnDoe on Wed, 26 July 2006 03:42
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Wed, 26 July 2006 08:23
		Re: hope none of you are them By: PaRaDoX on Wed, 26 July 2006 11:12
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Wed, 26 July 2006 08:13
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: JohnDoe on Wed, 26 July 2006 11:33
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Wed, 26 July 2006 13:15
		Re: hope none of you are them By: JohnDoe on Thu, 27 July 2006 00:57
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: PaRaDoX on Wed, 26 July 2006 11:38
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Wed, 26 July 2006 12:41
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mision08 on Wed, 26 July 2006 13:16
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Wed, 26 July 2006 14:17
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Sniper_De7 on Wed, 26 July 2006 15:55
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mision08 on Thu, 27 July 2006 02:55
		Re: hope none of you are them By: PaRaDoX on Thu, 27 July 2006 06:47
		Re: hope none of you are them By: KIRBY-098 on Thu, 27 July 2006 08:42
		Re: hope none of you are them By: DarkKnight on Thu, 27 July 2006 09:55
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Thu, 27 July 2006 10:18
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: mision08 on Thu, 27 July 2006 16:05
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Thu, 27 July 2006 17:33
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Thu, 27 July 2006 17:37
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Fri, 28 July 2006 10:06
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Fri, 28 July 2006 12:00
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: NukeIt15 on Fri, 28 July 2006 13:47
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: NukeIt15 on Fri, 28 July 2006 16:48
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Fri, 28 July 2006 17:14
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Crimson on Fri, 28 July 2006 19:20
		Re: hope none of you are them By: warranto on Fri, 28 July 2006 19:33
		Re: hope none of you are them By: mrpirate on Fri, 28 July 2006 21:05
		Re: hope none of you are them By: Javaxcx on Fri, 28 July 2006 23:00
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		Re: hope none of you are them By: xptek on Tue, 08 August 2006 21:40
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