| Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197613] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 04:34  |
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Goztow
Messages: 9737
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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It's only a first step but here i go. I'm following Xwis forums a bit and couldn't help but note that Renegade xwis is still a "go ahead and cheat, we won't do anything" - place.
Other games however, where cheats are much more difficult to detect, like RA2 have these rules and I quote from the news and announcements:
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1st time caught cheating : warning and 16 Days server ban
If a player is caught again they will get a final warning and a 32 day ban from the server
If they are caught a 3rd time they will be permanently banned from XWIS.
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When I compare both treatments, I got the impression that something could and maybe needs to be done.
One could say "there never is enough proove that someone cheated". Believe me, sometimes there is, we've seen it happen enough in the past.
Therefor I'd like to launch a discussion for banning prooved cheaters from xwis for a week (as a first step). I know Crimson had the technical possibility of doing it, allthough I think she doesn't have the contractual possibility yet. I would have started this kind of topic on xwis-forums but it's a waste of time and effort there, i'm afraid. And after all, these are the renegadeforums  .
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197644 is a reply to message #197614] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 09:12  |
imperfect3D
Messages: 17
Registered: September 2004
Karma: 0
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This game was a blast when it hit the shelves and was still supported. Trying to keep up with people like c4miner in the tournaments, no cheats, real clans, real tactics, real teamwork, etc.
I'm all for this idea IF you can prove without a doubt the person is cheating. And not the BS that's going on now.
For a time n00bstories was my server of choice. Now I get accused of cheating, kicked, banned? I've never cheated in this game. NEVER. If you just play the game and happen to kill the wrong person your kicked from most of the servers. And there's a few servers where the mods cheat their asses off and totally ruin the game for everyone. Sure they are your servers and you can do as you please. But don't ask for donations on your welcome msg... ffs
I'm still on win2k like the day I bought renegade.
So renguard doesn't run for me, and doesn't sound like a version will be out soon that supports win2k. (shove those "go buy xp" remarks up your ass, dumbest advice I've ever seen.)
No renguard, so I'm a cheater? That's how I'm treated on most servers that I do more than repair a tank or building.
As said above... the situation is BS right now.
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197663 is a reply to message #197650] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 11:44 |
bisen11
Messages: 797
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| luv2pb wrote on Tue, 25 April 2006 13:08 |
I personally don't see why you get any chance at all. First time cought = perm ban.
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There is still the arguement that you can't always completly prove whether they are cheating. So if they weren't and got permenantly banned that'd be unfair.
And also, what kind of ban are we talking about? IE: Name ban, IP Ban, Serial Ban.
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197686 is a reply to message #197613] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 13:59 |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Agreed, you need to prove it. If people are actually getting serious consequences to their actions they may consider not cheating. Now eventually someone who didn't do anything wrong will get banned, but perhaps if people are being banned for cheating, cheating will decrease greatly and become less of a problem. But that's only if you have fair people deciding who is banned and based on what evidence.
Homey
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197703 is a reply to message #197613] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 15:12 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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It doesn't do any good against servers that are on GameSpy or WOLspy.
Imperfect3D, send me a private message with your login name and a more complete description of your experience on our server and I will see if I can get you an exception.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197713 is a reply to message #197708] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 15:53 |
Homey
Messages: 1084
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Kamuix wrote on Tue, 25 April 2006 18:33 |
Is there really a need for it. Server bans seem good enouph as it is. And because there are not many servers, Cheaters dissapear fast.
And is there really a need to get rid of .....
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The only problem is that people change their names and ips and just rejoin. If there was a way to serial ban on a server that'd suffice.
Homey
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197717 is a reply to message #197713] |
Tue, 25 April 2006 16:30 |
Kanezor
Messages: 855
Registered: February 2005
Location: Sugar Land, TX, USA
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Homey wrote on Tue, 25 April 2006 17:53 |
| Kamuix wrote on Tue, 25 April 2006 18:33 |
Is there really a need for it. Server bans seem good enouph as it is. And because there are not many servers, Cheaters dissapear fast.
And is there really a need to get rid of .....
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The only problem is that people change their names and ips and just rejoin. If there was a way to serial ban on a server that'd suffice.
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GSA servers ban by serial hashes.
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197760 is a reply to message #197613] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 00:22 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9737
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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The whole idea is that cheaters now very often go unpunished on xwis, as IP and name - bans are more or less easy to bypass nowadays.
I think it is already very important for people to know that there is actually a punishment possible, it might already make a part of the cheaters think twice, especially when some exemples have been set.
This doesn't work for GSA-servers but it seems their bans use renegade serials, so bans are harder to bypass. Ideally we would use the xwis id's to ban on ofcourse, maybe Olaf will read this and give us an update on that possibility?
How to be sure someone is cheating? Maybe a simple report-system could be put in place. I think of a form where you give in a cheater's name, ip's, server he cheated on and a zip file with possible proof. This form is mailed to BHS. If they receive 15 complaints for the same person, it might be clear that there's a problem. This ofcourse asks for a cooperation of the server owners.
I think this discussion is valuable, some information can be bundled which may lead to a good way to handle this.
As to mr Pirate, you ain't half as 'important' to anyone, as you think you are.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197769 is a reply to message #197613] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 04:29 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Goztow, I think he was just pointing out the fact that you've banned people without any proof or ground to stand on. (Not that you're the first server to do it or anything, just kind of ironic to make a topic about having to have clear evidence for bans when obviously you don't do that :\
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197772 is a reply to message #197769] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 05:46 |
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Goztow
Messages: 9737
Registered: March 2005
Location: Belgium
Karma: 13
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General (5 Stars)
Goztoe |
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| Sniper_De7 wrote on Wed, 26 April 2006 07:29 |
Goztow, I think he was just pointing out the fact that you've banned people without any proof or ground to stand on. (Not that you're the first server to do it or anything, just kind of ironic to make a topic about having to have clear evidence for bans when obviously you don't do that :\
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I believe in catching cheaters on a 'feeling'. I got quite some experience with cheaters and people who give me doubts, can be banned indeed. I prefer to ban 10 people and have one non-cheater in it, than to ban 5 and have 4 cheaters in our server. This being said, I believe that Mr Pirate has more than earned his ban and many bans on other servers.
I do realise though that when a heavy punishment like banning from xwis is involved, you can only ban the 100 % sure cheaters and because people could abuse the system, you need proove.
There you go, hope this explains it.
You can find me in The KOSs2 (TK2) discord while I'm playing. Feel free to come and say hi! TK2 discord
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197788 is a reply to message #197772] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 08:52 |
Tunaman
Messages: 1190
Registered: January 2005
Karma: 2
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General (1 Star) |
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| Goztow wrote on Wed, 26 April 2006 08:46 |
I believe in catching cheaters on a 'feeling'.
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That's total BS, if you have that 'feeling' that someone is cheating, you should test them, or go under a nick that noone knows you as so you can watch them better. If you know the damage/point values for most of the weapons, then you should be able to easily see who are cheaters and who is actually good.. I have banned many people from the server that I mainly mod on, and do you know how many people have come to protest these bans? 1 person has, because another mod banned him just for being a "known hacker" because he has been banned from other servers while this person has never cheated, and because of this, has never been caught..
I'm hoping that videos like this could be submitted to get people banned from XWIS.. Ones like this show people blatantly cheating, which are the people who should be banned first because they can ruin a server within seconds. The "iffy" videos & proof could be judged after people like this are banned.
ftp://67.18.253.100/Cheater.wmv
One thing about Renegade is that people can direct connect without going through XWIS or gamespy.. Do the other games have this feature? If they don't, then maybe that's those rules are enforced more.. Because it totally removes the point of an XWIS ban if the cheater can still get into the servers.
Edit: My bad, but I think if someone has been proven to cheat they should be instantly perma-banned..
[Updated on: Wed, 26 April 2006 09:14] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197793 is a reply to message #197613] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 09:15 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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Well obviously banning on a feelign isn't going so hot for you, as you banned two innocent players. But, maybe you're right. Maybe n00bstories and jelly and whatever other servers are all missing something that you've spotted, even though you haven't spotted anything unnatural except for a "feeling" Way to be.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197814 is a reply to message #197760] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 12:24 |
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xptek
Messages: 1410
Registered: August 2004
Location: USSA
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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Really don't feel it should be up to XWIS to ban cheaters when there's quite a few different opinions on what's actually considered cheating (clearscope, etc).
I'd recommend something like a DNSBL, where known cheaters' serial hashes are blacklisted. This would provide server owners with a little more freedom to decide who's playing on their servers while helping to prevent cheating.
cause = time
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| Re: Discussion: 1 week ban from xwis for cheaters [message #197816 is a reply to message #197613] |
Wed, 26 April 2006 12:30 |
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xptek
Messages: 1410
Registered: August 2004
Location: USSA
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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I'm not sure how hard it would be for Olaf/etc. to add a protocol extension to XWIS that sends an MD5/SHA512 hash of the connecting player's serial to the FDS, which could then be interpreted by scripts.dll, but that would solve the technical issue of not having access to a client's hashed serial.
cause = time
[Updated on: Wed, 26 April 2006 12:30] Report message to a moderator |
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