Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » The 5 Phases of RenGuard users
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184207 is a reply to message #184205] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 18:11   |
Cobalt
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2005
Location: U.k
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How can you say i'm wrong...you think you're right???? Listen, using RG or NOT you can cheat, if you get tested when using RG anyway you've just proved my point even more. You're making yourself look an idiot by trying to out smart me with RG rofl.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184208 is a reply to message #184130] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 18:21 |
=HT=T-Bird
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Registered: June 2005
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Colonel |
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And, I should note Sniper, it is possible to abuse !forcerg (in most servers) to a level that is NOT POSSIBLE with any other !command ... !forcerg should be MODS ONLY, if not that, then it should be either a teampoll or globalpoll with a 2/3rds majority required for the force to take place...P.S. RG is beginning to suffer from feature creep too...
HTT-Bird (IRC)
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BlackIntel Coder & Moderator.
If you have trouble running BIATCH on your FDS, have some questions about a BIATCH message or log entry, or think that BIATCH spit out a false positive, PLEASE contact the BlackIntel coding team and avoid wasting the time of others.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184210 is a reply to message #184207] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 18:34 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
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| Cobalt wrote on Fri, 30 December 2005 20:11 |
How can you say i'm wrong...you think you're right???? Listen, using RG or NOT you can cheat, if you get tested when using RG anyway you've just proved my point even more. You're making yourself look an idiot by trying to out smart me with RG rofl.
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How did I prove your point? You can get tested whether you have RG or not. They are the same. What was your point? that people get tested? Whooptee fucking do. Think of RG as this, if you must. When you're playing a moderator is going to look at if you're using RG first. If you "fail" that part of the test he'll move onto the next, which would be testing you. Next would be screenshots. Get it?
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And, I should note Sniper, it is possible to abuse !forcerg (in most servers) to a level that is NOT POSSIBLE with any other !command ... !forcerg should be MODS ONLY, if not that, then it should be either a teampoll or globalpoll with a 2/3rds majority required for the force to take place...P.S. RG is beginning to suffer from feature creep too...
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Of course it's possible to abuse it. It's possible to abuse !votekick as well. That same server I was talking to you about they tested me? People voted to kick me some maps later.(this being after i was tested and sent screenshots AND had RG) as for mods only being able to. What would the point of that be? They'd just ban if they thought it was a cheater. The fact remains there is no real reason to not use RG unless you have a problem with it and you can't install. (Which, like i said, you COULD ask for help..) At least for forcerg i can be sure i can forcerg out a cheater when there isn't a mod to ban him.
If you guys can find a valid reason why not to install Renguard other than it doesn't work for you or somehow slows your computer down (i doubt it, what are the chances, especially when you probably run 50 programs in the background). Then I might see a reason why you'd be right to complain about being force rg'ed.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
[Updated on: Fri, 30 December 2005 18:35] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184212 is a reply to message #184210] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 18:42 |
Cobalt
Messages: 11
Registered: October 2005
Location: U.k
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omg man read this carefully your small brain may take it is, IF YOUR GOING TO GET TESTED FOR CHEATS WHAT IS THE USE IN RG??????????????????????????????? Its solely to support n00bs brains into thinking they are safe.. Your not making points at all, your contradicting yourself.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184216 is a reply to message #184212] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 19:08 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
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| Cobalt wrote on Fri, 30 December 2005 20:42 |
omg man read this carefully your small brain may take it is, IF YOUR GOING TO GET TESTED FOR CHEATS WHAT IS THE USE IN RG??????????????????????????????? Its solely to support n00bs brains into thinking they are safe.. Your not making points at all, your contradicting yourself.
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Is that all you think RG does? I guess you know how to bypass it, right? just like everyone else. Not that even if i would believe you, you wouldn't tell BHS how you do it either. The point of RG is that is stops 99% of the people who intend on using cheats. (even if it was 10% of the cheaters it's still better than NOTHING) Let me tell you again. If a moderator thinks you are cheating, having RG is one way of saying that you passed their test (I'd say it was the best since it's the fastest and most efficient way - 99 out of a 100 isn't bad) If you didn't have RG then the mod would then go and test you and ask for screenshots. A good mod would ask for a test and a screenshot if you had RG as well. What's the difference? that you're more liable to be cheating if not using RG, than using it. It's a fact. It's a geniune fact. You can't dispute it because it's true. Argue if you want, but it'll be wrong. Besides, even if you STILL think for some reason RG did nothing; then WHY did they ban people who TRIED bypassing it and got caught? It's one less cheater and that's something i'll go and use and support renguard for.
Let me ask this again, if you can find a valid reason to not use renguard other than it not working on your computer, then do not complain about being forcerg'ed. Thank you.
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184217 is a reply to message #184210] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 19:13 |
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light
Messages: 988
Registered: January 2005
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| Sniper_De7 wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 14:34 |
When you're playing a moderator is going to look at if you're using RG first.
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Not on a lot of servers I play on.
| Sniper_De7 wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 14:34 |
If you "fail" that part of the test he'll move onto the next, which would be testing you. Next would be screenshots. Get it?
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Thats step 1, not step 2.
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The fact remains there is no real reason to not use RG unless you have a problem with it and you can't install. (Which, like i said, you COULD ask for help..) At least for forcerg i can be sure i can forcerg out a cheater when there isn't a mod to ban him.
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So if I lag killed you and I wasn't running RG would you force me? Your jusification for "cheating" seems to be "gets a shot that looks weird" and "not running RenGuard". Thats a flawed assumption.
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If you guys can find a valid reason why not to install Renguard other than it doesn't work for you or somehow slows your computer down (i doubt it, what are the chances, especially when you probably run 50 programs in the background). Then I might see a reason why you'd be right to complain about being force rg'ed.
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I'm not complaining about being forcerg'ed. I play in servers that don't require it, or in servers when the hosts and admins know who I am.
And are you 100% sure RenGuard can block Bighead? The current version of RG has a reliance that means, in theory, someone with enough skills and the correct code could use Bighead and RenGuard at the same time, and RG would declare them to be clean.
I'm not going to tell you how, or attempt it because i'm not a cheat, nor do I encourage them, but Crimson knows about the possibility and it should be fixed when 1.04 comes out.
Please try and follow this logic:
Player + RenGuard = Can Cheat (harder to do I admit, but definately possible)
Player + No RenGuard = Can Cheat (easily)
Therefore:
Me + RenGuard = Could cheat
Me + No RenGuard = Could cheat
If I could cheat with it, and cheat without it, then why bother to install it at all if all it does is convice the odd player who believes it's 100% that i'm cheat-free? (Ok, it's a gesture of good faith)
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184222 is a reply to message #184219] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 19:50 |
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light
Messages: 988
Registered: January 2005
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| warranto wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 15:46 |
Of course using that logic, I can assume you don't lock your doors, you don't use any sort of anti-virus or firewall, and you never worry about securing anything of value.
Afterall, they can ALL be bypassed, so why even bother in the first place?
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I do them all, but I don't expect them to block all intruders, if someone really wants to get into my system or house they will.
I don't instantly presume "the house is locked, it must be secure". Were as some players presume "he is using RG, he doesn't cheat".
Besides, RG isn't about protecting me, it's about 'protecting' the servers, so your example doesn't really give a decent parallel.
[Updated on: Fri, 30 December 2005 19:51] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184225 is a reply to message #184130] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 20:06 |
NeWbSh0T
Messages: 4
Registered: December 2005
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I'd just like to say a few things....
#1. light posted this to be humurous not for it to spread into some mind boggling debate about whether or not people should run RG.
#2. No matter what you guys say to defend yourselves it's hopeless...People can and will cheat on Renegade no matter what you guys do, you have said it yourself; Nothing is perfect nor will it ever be. Renguard or not cheaters will exist.
#3. Take some time to think about the many contradictory statements you guys have brought upon yourselves while trying to debate. It's quite pathetic really...
#4. I don't understand why players such as ourselves should download Renguard, we are experienced and have talent in the game, most people know that already and leave us to have our fun; often times carrying on a joyful conversation while doing so.
#5. Is this debate about running Renguard or who the !forcerg command should be able to be accessed by? Last I checked all servers on Renegade had their own rules and own policy on how to run things, correct me if I'm wrong please?
Last but not least #6. Explain this infamous logic everyone is talking about as to why people should use RG. Renguard contains flaws in it like any other program that could be made, running it or not running it tests will occur throughout the rest of the time that Renegade stays alive.
I would like to comment that Renguard has come a long ways and does allow in some cases for people to enjoy the game a little more. In no way do I have any problems with Renguard besides the fact of how it brainwashes many people into thinking RG= "he doesn't cheat." I am with many others that choose not to run it because I am cheat free and have been cheat free. It's a video game.....Enjoy it, and quit debating about some game "client-side bot that doesn't allow people to cheat"
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184226 is a reply to message #184217] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 20:13 |
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Sniper_De7
Messages: 866
Registered: April 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Karma: 0
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No, I wouldn't forcerg them. I would RG them. If I knew they were using RG I would be less worried about their cheating but still be cautious; if they weren't I'd try to see more into it and be more cautious (ie looking at my health and seeing if they were doing shady damage)
A moderator SHOULD look to see if you have RG first. Of course there are exceptions. A moderator banned me before after i had RG and i tested well and i gave screenshots (I don't know what else you can ask for unless you want my urine, too)
Look I'm not saying people abuse the forcerg command because they do. If a person thinks you cheat he'll be intent on believing it. So being votekicked or whatever else is the same thing. It can be abused. Of course it'd be stupid to say it's bad to have votekick since it's a good tool if there is no moderators online (in fact it's really the only defence; unless it's half-rg server, which forcerg'ing would be a good defence just as well
Look a person who is new to the game would seem suspicious to them that a person who is so much better than them (It's hard for new guys to recognize that players can get that much better than them and do things they didn't KNOW were possible [yes, this falls under the 3+ headshots in a row]) It only really makes it seem more suspicious that a person would not install renguard when there's no reason not to for them. Don't you agree with that? Of course there's no 100%s with anything so to argue that it's not perfect is futile. It's why people agree to testing when they aren't cheating. It's why they take screenshots. and guess what? it's the same reason i use renguard. I've got nothing to hide, so why does it matter to me? you?
Look I'm not saying RG isn't full proof. It serves as reassurance to moderators and players alike that you'd take a step to install it. A screenshot isn't full proof either but you don't complain, do you? Just because it isn't full proof doesn't mean than it loses its point to have it done. Just the same "testing" isn't always full proof either. When you do these things it servers as nothing but reassurance for the moderators that you don't cheat. If 1 out 100 renguard users are using bypasses and cheats then what do you think the figure on how many who are using cheats and not using RG?
More than 1, that's for sure. So it's saying it's more possible for a guy to be cheating when not using RG (duh) than using it. So do us all the favour and install it
Oderint, dum metuant.
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. - Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184227 is a reply to message #184130] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 20:20 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
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General (5 Stars) |
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#1. light posted this to be humurous not for it to spread into some mind boggling debate about whether or not people should run RG.
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Light's "joke" was not funny in the least. The intent of his post is irrelevant, a forum tends to be a dynamic place of discussion and a topic rarely stays on its intended course of discussion.
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#4. I don't understand why players such as ourselves should download Renguard, we are experienced and have talent in the game, most people know that already and leave us to have our fun; often times carrying on a joyful conversation while doing so.
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It's easy to understand: You should download RenGuard because you're expected to do so by the majority of server owners. I'm probably way more experienced than you are, having played this game since the first day of the beta test back on 3 December of 2001; I'm expected to run RenGuard like any other user and I do so without issue or complaint.
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#5. Is this debate about running Renguard or who the !forcerg command should be able to be accessed by? Last I checked all servers on Renegade had their own rules and own policy on how to run things, correct me if I'm wrong please?
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Which answers your above statement about why you don't understand RenGuard being a necessity on servers.
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Last but not least #6. Explain this infamous logic everyone is talking about as to why people should use RG. Renguard contains flaws in it like any other program that could be made, running it or not running it tests will occur throughout the rest of the time that Renegade stays alive.
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Of course it contains flaws in it, but I'll reiterate a point from Crimson since she's not here at the moment: Where's your proof that any of these supposed flaws actually exist? For the sake of argument, let's assume that RenGuard has some sort of flaw that allows a few people to run a cheating package somehow - even if they did, why does that mean that nobody should use RenGuard?
Go on with your gaming and refuse to run it, just don't whine like an idiot when you get banned by the users for not wanting to deal with non-RenGuard users. 99% of the time any RG user is not cheating, and I'm still waiting on proof that anyone's cheated with it before.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184228 is a reply to message #184130] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 20:24 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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The RenGuard network and client are getting a complete rewrite. RenGuard 1.04 is beta-test ready, but the backend network is a complete mess because mac left us with non-working garbage code.
The backend network is getting a complete rewrite as well. We KNOW that RenGuard is pretty shitty the last month or two.
Once our RG2 backend and RenGuard 1.04 are out, your confidence will come back. I assure you.
Furthermore, RenGuard is NOT intended to be a be-all/end-all tool. On my server, we use RenGuard as the first check. After that, we use all the logging available to us to make a determination. Screen shots are 100% worthless and pointless and anyone who relies on them is a fool. Trust me. I also use a range of psychological factors that I'm working on coding into my bot to make a percentage likelihood of whether or not the person is cheating.
But in the end, I have seen people accused of aimbots and cheats ever since the first day the game came out. No anti-cheat, even the unattainable perfect one, will ever stop n00bs from thinking people cheat when they get owned.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184232 is a reply to message #184228] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 21:00 |
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light
Messages: 988
Registered: January 2005
Karma: 0
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Colonel |
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| Crimson wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 16:24 |
The RenGuard network and client are getting a complete rewrite. RenGuard 1.04 is beta-test ready, but the backend network is a complete mess because mac left us with non-working garbage code.
The backend network is getting a complete rewrite as well. We KNOW that RenGuard is pretty shitty the last month or two.
Once our RG2 backend and RenGuard 1.04 are out, your confidence will come back. I assure you.
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I know that 1.04 is a complete re-write, and I have more confidence in it than in 1.03. If 1.04 performs i'll happily stop putting RG down and use it.
| Crimson wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 16:24 |
Furthermore, RenGuard is NOT intended to be a be-all/end-all tool.
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A lot of servers believe it is.
| Crimson wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 16:24 |
On my server, we use RenGuard as the first check. After that, we use all the logging available to us to make a determination. Screen shots are 100% worthless and pointless and anyone who relies on them is a fool.
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Besides RG, screenshots, tests and good moderators are all we have.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184243 is a reply to message #184222] |
Fri, 30 December 2005 23:23 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
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General (2 Stars) |
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| light wrote on Fri, 30 December 2005 19:50 |
| warranto wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 15:46 |
Of course using that logic, I can assume you don't lock your doors, you don't use any sort of anti-virus or firewall, and you never worry about securing anything of value.
Afterall, they can ALL be bypassed, so why even bother in the first place?
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I do them all, but I don't expect them to block all intruders, if someone really wants to get into my system or house they will.
I don't instantly presume "the house is locked, it must be secure". Were as some players presume "he is using RG, he doesn't cheat".
Besides, RG isn't about protecting me, it's about 'protecting' the servers, so your example doesn't really give a decent parallel.
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Exactly, you know taking those precautions don't prevent ALL occurances of being bypassed, yet you still use them. They are there for two reasons, being a) it helps protect your interests and b) it's better than not having anything at all. However all forms of security have a flaw: they can be bypassed.
By your own admittance:
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Player + RenGuard = Can Cheat (harder to do I admit, but definately possible)
Player + No RenGuard = Can Cheat (easily)
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It is harder to cheat than if there is no Renguard, as it will prevent all but the hardcore people from cheating.
It gives a perfect parallel, you just failed to see it. One stops people that would like to prohibit your enjoyment of life regarding personal interests, and the other one stops people that would like to prohibit your enjoyment of life regarding personal interests. I'll leave you to decide which one is Renguard, and which one is the "other" security feature.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184249 is a reply to message #184244] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 00:55 |
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light
Messages: 988
Registered: January 2005
Karma: 0
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| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
Tests won't even detect half of the current cheats out there. Explain to me how you test for a damage mod that only uses the alternate fire,
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Scoped SS.
| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
or one that can be anabled and disabled at any time. Screenshots detect little more than the big head mods from over 2 years ago.
Any cheat that could bypass RG would more than likely be able to bypass these simple tests as well.
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So we are agreed that neither is 100%, moving on.
| Renx wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 19:28 |
RG is not really there to prevent YOU from cheating(most people that install RG are more than likely not going to be cheaters), it's there to make the moderator's job easier. If they can pull up a list of everyone in the server who is not running RG, it narrows down the possibilities a tremendous amount. By not cheating, and not running RG, the only thing you're doing is make the job of the mods/admins even harder than it already is.
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Your not following my point. The fact that you can cheat and use RG means that I don't care if someone is running it or not. I honestly don't. I haven't used the !rg command or checked the RenGuard page for ages.
You can assume most RG users are clean, fine, but what about the ones that aren't? Should we ignore RG users and say they don't cheat because they are running your software? If you REALLY thought they cheated, but they were running RG what would you do?
warranto: your parallel doesn't work. It works if you presume I am running a server and don't want bad people in my server (house), but RG affords me no personal protection, it doesn't protect my PC from anything.
[Updated on: Sat, 31 December 2005 00:57] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184257 is a reply to message #184130] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 03:12 |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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General (5 Stars)
ADMINISTRATOR |
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You still fail to understand. Imagine it like a water filtering system.
* You have the big river bringing water into the city. (This is ALL Renegade players)
* The city filters out all the dirt, most particles, bacteria, fingi, etc. before it gets to your house. (This is RenGuard)
* You install a filter in your fridge which removes the last remaining impurities before the water comes out of the door and into your glass. (This being moderators, logging, tests)
Now what would happen if you eliminated the city filtering? Easy! Your little filter in your fridge would fill up with sludge and be useless very quickly.
Bottom line? Use RenGuard as your preliminary filter and greatly reduce the number of cheaters you have to find manually.
I'm the bawss.
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184260 is a reply to message #184130] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 03:42 |
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light
Messages: 988
Registered: January 2005
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Colonel |
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But how does that effect me? With or without RG i'm still clean as a whistle, and i'd hope to be tested even if I was running it.
RG does have its uses, it stops the cheats that don't know how to attempt a decent bypass (or where to find one), the first-timers and the n00b bighead users, and for that i'm appreciative, but when servers swear by it and require no other forms of determining if they're cheat-free, then you end up without a filter in your fridge.
Thats the argument i'm trying to put forward, not that RG is totally useless, but that it can't prove a person totally innocent.
[Updated on: Sat, 31 December 2005 03:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: The 5 Phases of RenGuard users [message #184286 is a reply to message #184260] |
Sat, 31 December 2005 09:49 |
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warranto
Messages: 2584
Registered: February 2003
Location: Alberta, Canada
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General (2 Stars) |
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| light wrote on Sat, 31 December 2005 03:42 |
But how does that effect me? With or without RG i'm still clean as a whistle, and i'd hope to be tested even if I was running it.
RG does have its uses, it stops the cheats that don't know how to attempt a decent bypass (or where to find one), the first-timers and the n00b bighead users, and for that i'm appreciative, but when servers swear by it and require no other forms of determining if they're cheat-free, then you end up without a filter in your fridge.
Thats the argument i'm trying to put forward, not that RG is totally useless, but that it can't prove a person totally innocent.
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But that's just it, it has nothing to do with you. A lock on your house protects the house, a firewall protects your computer. None of those do anything to protect you, except by consequence of protecting the object where you reside. RenGuard protects the server, where you are currently residing. Perhaps a better parallel would be to think of it as the security gate before getting on a flight. Sure the average person will not try to do anything that would require them to be stopped, but you are still required to go through the security -like everyone else. I've never seen anyone complain that they had to suffer the indignity of a security check, because they hold high principles and would never do anything.
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