Home » General Discussions » Heated Discussions and Debates » Scrap the income tax!
| Scrap the income tax! [message #110117] |
Wed, 25 August 2004 16:33  |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Colonel |
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There's not an American out there who would disagree with me when I say the current tax code imposed by the federal government is damaged beyond repair. Working Americans are fed up with huge portions of their paychecks being witheld to pay for social security and medicare taxes. They're even more fed up when they have to file for their income taxes on April 15 every year.
Of course, we can't just all of a sudden end all federal taxes since taxes are necessary for the government to function, so how do we replace the current defunct tax code with a system that would still provide the government with funds necessary to funtion? Implement the FairTax Plan.
What is the FairTax Plan, you ask? Quite simply, it is a nation-wide sales tax placed on all goods and services sold in the United States. Spending up to the poverty level is tax-free with the FairTax rebate.
The FairTax Plan has been proposed to the House of Representatives as a bill under the title HR 25.
For the complete text of HR 25, go here and type in "H.R. 25" in the "Search by Bill Number" box.
Think about it. No more income taxes. No more witholding. People will be able to keep all of the money they earn and be able to spend it as they see fit!
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110124] |
Wed, 25 August 2004 16:46  |
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Crimson
Messages: 7429
Registered: February 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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General (5 Stars)
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I would love that... and it would be equal because people who have more, buy more, and hence pay more taxes.
I'm the bawss.
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110128] |
Wed, 25 August 2004 17:04 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
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General (1 Star) |
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Oh my god, all taxes in sales tax? THAT'S A RIDICULOUS IDEA!
First, we can't privatize social security, because when we do that, the current people who are using it don't get any money. It doesn't work on putting money away for oh-so-many years, when you pay taxes on social security, that money is used to pay for the social security of the people who are currently getting it.
To implement a sales tax, there would have to be a 26% tax on everything you buy, assuming it's a flat tax on everything. That means 26% on houses. A 100,000 dollar house would end up costing you 126,000. But not on yachts. America doesn't make yachts. We exported those jobs. So, rich people go to France with their million dollars to buy a yacht, on which the sales tax is zero.
This idea was so stupid that when President Bush said this, when he got back to his handlers, they slapped him right and left and yelled at him never to say that again. It proves George Bush in no way understands economics, and neither do you two.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110135] |
Wed, 25 August 2004 17:36 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
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General (1 Star) |
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| hydra1945 |
Working Americans are fed up with huge portions of their paychecks being witheld to pay for social security
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So, being fed up with paying for social security means we're not going to pay for it any more, right? Or does this mean that Americans are fed up and will have to stay fed up?
And what is so big in this bill besides ending all taxes except for sales tax? Solely having a sales tax is one of the worst economic ideas ever. Period.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110141] |
Wed, 25 August 2004 17:45 |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| SuperFlyingEngi |
So, being fed up with paying for social security means we're not going to pay for it any more, right? Or does this mean that Americans are fed up and will have to stay fed up?
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*sigh* I was referring to witholding. You do know what witholding is since you know sooooo much about economics and our tax code, right? Then you would know that portions of Americans' paychecks are witheld and paid to the government solely for Social Security and Medicare.
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Solely having a sales tax is one of the worst economic ideas ever. Period.
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Prove it.
But before you do, I suggest you look here for how the FairTax plan will impact the economy.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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[Updated on: Wed, 25 August 2004 17:47] Report message to a moderator |
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110142] |
Wed, 25 August 2004 17:47 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
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General (1 Star) |
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| hydra1945 |
*sigh* I was referring to witholding. You do know what witholding is since you know sooooo much about economics and our tax code, right? Then you would know that portions of Americans' paychecks are witheld and paid to the government solely for Social Security and Medicare.
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So we wouldn't withhold money for Social Security and Medicare but instead pay for it another way? Why is that so great? Just let me see what you think on it.
Read my first post, if you haven't already.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110151] |
Wed, 25 August 2004 18:04 |
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SuperFlyingEngi
Messages: 1756
Registered: November 2003
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| hydra1945 |
You mean that crap about buying a home for more money? Don't you realize that you would have more money to spend in this system?
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But everything would cost 20% more, which would inhibit growth.
| hydra1945 |
You actually get to keep all of what you earn if witholding is no longer a part of the tax system.
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But you would spend it right back because everything would cost so much more.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
"The danger to political dissent is acute where the Government attempts to act under so vague a concept as the power to protect "domestic security." Given the difficulty of defining the domestic security interest, the danger of abuse in acting to protect that interest becomes apparent. --U.S. Supreme Court decision (407 U.S. 297 (1972)
The Liberal Media At Work
An objective look at media partisanship
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110162] |
Wed, 25 August 2004 18:53 |
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NukeIt15
Messages: 987
Registered: February 2003
Location: Out to lunch
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I'll put it this way...
Would I rather have a 20% sales tax, or a 30%(just a ballpark estimate, not actual data) income tax? I'm not exactly up on my income taxes(I've never had an income, so I've never had to pay them), but as I understand income taxes can total up to over a third of a person's income. A sales tax will only take as much of my money as I are willing to spend on it- the less I buy, the less I pay.
Let's say you want to get a $22,000 car. Let's just say you get $30,000 for your annual income. If you have a 30% income tax, you can't buy the car, plain and simple- you're $2000 short(not counting the sales tax in your state). However, with a 20% sales tax and no income tax at all, the total price of the car is $26,400- and you still have money left over($3,600 to be exact).
Note that I was just giving an example, and did not factor in such things as food, rent, water and electric bills, etc. I believe, however, that the point there should be pretty clear. Unless you spend up a storm and exceed your income, you really DO have more money to work with at the end of the day.
That's just one take on it, of course. I could easily imagine someone blowing more money on sales taxes than they did on income taxes- they get more from each paycheck, so they go and spend themselves stupid. Then again, that's not much different than people who charge up a storm on their no-limit credit cards then forget to pay their bills.
If a larger sales tax ends up being the only tax I ever pay, I'm all for it. I'd happily open up a savings account and shove all the extra money from NOT being taxed into that account to earn interest, gaining even more money in the process.
HOWEVER...
The long term effects of such a change could be either good or bad. Depending on how much people spend, you could either have far more or far less money for social security and other programs. Seeing how much money people are willing to blow(even when they don't have any to begin with), I predict that the effects would not manifest themselves unless something REALLY nasty were to happen- something like a catastrophic stock market crash.
"Arms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. Horrid mischief would ensue were (the law-abiding) deprived of the use of them." - Thomas Paine
Remember, kids: illiteracy is cool. If you took the time to read this, you are clearly a loser who will never get laid. You've been warned.
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110178] |
Wed, 25 August 2004 19:35 |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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The United States GDP was about $11 trillion as of May 11, 2004. The budget for the federal government is approx. $2.5 trillion (not sure if that's the right number, but can't be bothered to look it up  ). When you do the math, $2.5 trillion is just about 23% of $11 trillion. Instead of having a myriad of different taxes all feeding into that $2.5 trillion budget, you'd have just one kind of tax that adequately funds the federal government.
The current tax code is full of loopholes and other problems (among them, the IRS (need I say more about the IRS?)). A national sales tax would do away with all of those problems presented by the current tax code.
I kind of mentioned this in my first post, but not all that well....
Spending up to the poverty level is tax-free thanks to the FairTax rebate that's written into the law.
http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/faq-main.html#3
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110292] |
Thu, 26 August 2004 03:26 |
NHJ BV
Messages: 712
Registered: February 2003
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I think this is pretty much impossible to implement unless you close all borders and double-check anyone entering the country. Otherwise it would be very lucrative for people who live close to te Canadian or Mexican border, I think (assuming we're talking US here).
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #110303] |
Thu, 26 August 2004 04:51 |
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ViperFUD
Messages: 69
Registered: April 2003
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| SuperFlyingEngi |
But everything would cost 20% more, which would inhibit growth.
But you would spend it right back because everything would cost so much more.
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Ok, kiddo.
I'm cutting you some slack here, cause you're young, annd you've shown intelligence other times.
Check this shit out, though:
Right now, the government takes 25% of my money. I don't even earn that much, but I'm in a 25% tax bracket.
If instead of taking 25% of my money right now, I would rather they took 25% of what I SPENT. ie, I only lose money if I actually spend it. Why? Well, cause most of my savings are gonna go towards paying for college. And that usually ends up being tax free.
What other ramifications will this have? Well, it'll make people more likely to save their money (think about it ... a new TV, you don't really need it ... at 25% extra, you prolly won't buy it) so when they're retired and have to buy perscription drugs, it won't be such a burden on the government (and here's an idea: make drugs tax-free).
Right now, dumbasses who blew all their monay on shit they didn't need (and cocaine) back in the 70's are taking MY money to pay for drugs to keep their stupid asses alive. (Guess how I feel about that...)
I'm a big fan of the government NOT keeping people alive who are too stupid to look out for themselves. Now if someone's poor (ie, worked their whole life, couldn't catch a break, etc ... saved as well as they could, but couldn't save enough) then I'm the first person who would want to help them out.
But I would rather see charities or churches help those people out than the government.
When America was first founded, the rule was: He who does not work shall not eat.
Today: He who does not eat shall have food, housing, and a big screen TV provided to him by the US Government.
And it's easy to be how you are now, Engi, but wait till you've been working for 5-10 years. You'll understand - people aren't doing shit and I have to give them my money. Not cool, Zeus.
~Vip
And shepherds we shall be,
For thee, my Lord, for thee.
Power hath descended forth from thy hand;
That our feet may swiftly carry out thy command.
And we shall flow a river forth to thee,
And teeming with souls shall it ever be.
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #149861] |
Sat, 16 April 2005 20:31 |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
Registered: September 2003
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Colonel |
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*Was gonna bump this yesterday, being tax day and all, but didn't get around to it*
$38.81
Doesn't seem like a huge number to get upset about, does it?
It's only about forty bucks. What can I do with forty dollars nowadays? That's just a little more than the price for a full tank of gas. Maybe there's enough left over for a bottle of coke when I walk in to pay for it.
It's just $38.81. Big deal.
I've held a part-time job since the middle of February, so the income taxes I've had to pay thus far are insignificant compared with the huge amounts of money others have to pay.
Not too much to get worked up about, is it?
It's still my money.
It's money I have earned.
It's money that should be mine to spend as I see fit.
It's money that the government has taken from me because it believes it can spend that $38.81 better than I can.
Spend on what? Some failed social program that will go bankrupt ten years from now? Is that such a much better way to spend MY money than spending it on a tank of gas that can get me to and from work for a few days in a row so I can continue making money?
This is my first experience with paying income taxes and having a percentage of my paycheck withheld from me
Am I angry? You bet I am. I'm angered because I know that next year, the income tax pricetag for me will be much larger since I will have worked for a good, solid year.
The time to end the plunder of the graduated income tax system is now.
Support HR 25 and the FairTax plan for a fair way of taxation.
Damn, that ended weak....
EDIT: To address an issue brought up previously in this thread.... Every product you buy right now has an embedded tax in the price of the product, resulting from the income taxes placed on businesses, taxes such as payroll taxes and corporate income taxes. With the FairTax plan, those taxes would be completely eliminated, so the overall price of the product would go down.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #149865] |
Sat, 16 April 2005 21:09 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
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Just get rid of workmans comp and the employer contribution to social security and I'll be happy..
I can find plenty of ways to keep my money through business write-offs, the two above are the biggest money leeches to a business.
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #149867] |
Sat, 16 April 2005 21:17 |
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Hydra
Messages: 827
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Location: Atlanta, GA
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| gbull |
wouldnt an increase of sales tax cause a decrease in sales nationwide? Thus lowering the number of sales. Now if sales are lowered, companies are not going to want to lose money so the price of goods will rise to compensate for the loss as the demand for them falls. This doesnt look as if it would work on any scheme I look at it and could collapse the economy into a modern depression. Not something i wanna deal with, i'll just pay my income tax.
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| Hydra |
Every product you buy right now has an embedded tax in the price of the product, resulting from the income taxes placed on businesses, taxes such as payroll taxes and corporate income taxes. With the FairTax plan, those taxes would be completely eliminated, so the overall price of the product would go down.
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How would it cause a decrease in sales? If anything, sales would increase because people would have more money to spend on goods that are basically the same price, if not a little (to substantially) cheaper.
Walter Keith Koester: September 22, 1962 - March 15, 2005
God be with you, Uncle Wally.
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #149875] |
Sat, 16 April 2005 23:01 |
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IRON FART
Messages: 1989
Registered: September 2003
Location: LOS ANGELES
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General (1 Star) |
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How many of the people who have posted in this thread actually pay income taxes?
Out of curiosity...
EDIT: And by the way, I don't have much of a problem with the tax system right now. If the April 15 deadline really needs to be phased out, America could adopt a tax system similar to the UK.
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Quote from IRC
<[Digital]> get man_fucking_a_car.mpg
<[Digital]> ah fuck wrong window
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[Updated on: Sat, 16 April 2005 23:04] Report message to a moderator |
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #149877] |
Sat, 16 April 2005 23:12 |
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cheesesoda
Messages: 6507
Registered: March 2003
Location: Jackson, Michigan
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General (5 Stars) |
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Hydra, as we were discussing earlier, I find myself agreeing with Tool. I like having money being withheld from my paycheck. Granted, I obviously can't currently do this seeing as I'm being 1099. Either way, I see nothing wrong with having my money being withheld. This way, for most people, they won't get caught into a trap of spending what (technically) is not their own.
This will also affect tourism. Is there going to be a 20% discount on all items sold if they can prove their residency is in another country, or is their money going to be unjustly given to our government? I don't see how it's fair that they have to pay our taxes for us.
I also like how the income tax kind of shows patronage to the government for keeping them safe and free of invasions. I like it because it's also a traditional thing. It's the same idea that's been used for millenia. The national sales tax takes away from that.
Granted, I do see some problems with the current distribution of taxes over the citizens. I don't think that poverty level incomes should go tax free, and I don't think that anybody making over $300,000 should be paying 1/3 of their money earned. I think that the percentages should be closer together. The lower incomes taxed a few percent more, and the high incomes taxed a few percent less. Example: have a minimum of 5% and a maximum of 25%.
whoa.
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #149996] |
Sun, 17 April 2005 15:31 |
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IRON FART
Messages: 1989
Registered: September 2003
Location: LOS ANGELES
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General (1 Star) |
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We should revert back to trading cattle.
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Quote from IRC
<[Digital]> get man_fucking_a_car.mpg
<[Digital]> ah fuck wrong window
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| Scrap the income tax! [message #149999] |
Sun, 17 April 2005 15:53 |
msgtpain
Messages: 663
Registered: March 2003
Location: Montana
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| Crimson |
All I have to say is this:
Anyone who has an idea to make this number better... I'm glad to hear it. I don't think the Democrats can acheive this.
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Married filing jointly helps, for one. Another is to start an actual, non tax-exempt business which you can spend 5 hours a week doing something for, and write off a bunch of stuff.. An even better solution is to actually start a full business and go to work for yourself. Pay yourself $8/hour for W2 income, profit share the rest, then have enough expenses to make your business earn very little profit to roll over to your personal taxes every year. Things such as your car payment, gas, insurance, cell phone, all the office expenses that you have out of your house, etc.. Buy a new car over 6400 lbs and write the entire purchase off the year you buy it, etc, etc.. Things that you would normally do every year, and never receive a tax incentive for become quite lucrative 
Two other things that greatly affect the tax payment directly (not your taxable income) are school payments and children.. Make sure you give as much as possible every year to GoodWill, and keep a recept itimizing what you gave and how much you think it was worth.. Your home mortgage interest is deductible too, so are all your property taxes.. have a home office and you can deduct a percentage of all your utilities, insurance and depreciate all your computer equipment..
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