Home » General Discussions » General Discussion » Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127636] |
Sun, 19 December 2004 16:55   |
ADM
Messages: 133
Registered: March 2003
Karma: 0
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If there are more ramjet users then you simply either:
- Get a tank to occupy the snipers while you take them off from behind.
- Ask someone else to help to snipe, thus taking the workload off.
There are many tactics, still the more snipers there are - the more points there are up for offer.
If your team has no snipers or any other methods of countering these ramjet users, then you deserve to lose. Every game I play in AOW, my team has no problems with snipers, because I take the role of sniping even though I'd rather be in a tank. Teamwork and strategy, rather than sitting on a hill in a tank shooting the power plant.
So if these so called n00bs go for easy kills and points with ramjet, then so does your team. Except you do it BETTER.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127654] |
Sun, 19 December 2004 17:38 |
ADM
Messages: 133
Registered: March 2003
Karma: 0
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Ramjet does have a hefty cost for usage, all it takes is someone to kill you and you've gone down a 1000. You could rush a base and destroy a building before the other side even starts buying ramjets.
Skill and good tactics are the counter to ramjets. Alot of things appear to have no counter on the outside. Just because it doesn't have an immediate counter cycle as most things 'appear' to have, it doesn't mean a counter doesn't exist.
BTW would you consider stealth as a counter to sniping?
My main point is that I know ramjet are slightly overpowered as stated earlier - but that is what Renegade is known for now. Most people have adjusted to this now, changing it will only make things worse. (IMO)
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127687] |
Sun, 19 December 2004 19:29 |
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m1a1_abrams
Messages: 375
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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| Blazer |
I've always said I think the Ramjet should damage vehicles, but much less than it does now, with a lot less points. It should continue to do the same damage to infantry. The 500 cred sniper rifle should NOT damage vehicles AT ALL...come on its basically a deer rifle it shouldnt be able to take out a mrls/mobart from across the map.
Anyone disagree with this?
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It depends how much damage you think the Ramjet should do. If you're thinking around the level of damage to light armour that the regular sniper rifle does currently, then I would have to disagree.
On most maps infantry have the ability to fire out from inside cover that can't be reached by vehicles. If you're in a Buggy on City Flying, you have almost zero chance of winning a fight against a skilled Deadeye firing from the tunnels. He can move in and out of cover, hitting you instantly from long range until he's chipped away all of your health, and the only thing you can do is withdraw from the field. You can't fight back because if the sniper hides in the tunnels, you can't reach him with your vehicle, so you can't damage him. The long range and the instant hitting properties of the sniper rifles are just too much in conjunction with the ability to make yourself impervious to harm when required. It doesn't matter how much you reduce the damage vs. vehicles unless you make it almost negligible, because they can keep firing at you with no fear of retaliation. All that damage they're inflicting builds up over time and it's not like snipers are going to be the only enemy shooting at a light armoured vehicle. Against infantry it's more balanced because they can follow you into cover and engage you at close quarters.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127842] |
Mon, 20 December 2004 11:21 |
flyingfox
Messages: 1612
Registered: February 2003
Location: scotland, uk
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| =[DT |
=gbull=[L]=]
Ramjet < Tiberium Flechette Gun
Ramjet < Laser Chaingunner
Ramjet < Stealth Black Hand
Ramjet < Armored Personnel Carrier
Ramjet < Medium/Light Tank
Ramjet < Better Sniper
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All of those get wasted except the med and apc, and the sniper doesn't count.
Look, the bottom line is, fuck that. Some people want to actually enjoy their game instead of losing their vehicle in 10 seconds to instant hitting, almost impossible to counter n00b cannons. Of course you would say I should send an SBH or apc or whatever over there to counter the sniper. What then? I go back to using what I want to use, and out comes another n00b cannon.
It's like saying if there's a pesky fly in your house and the only way to kill it is to crush it, you should keep throwing fly repellant at it to temporarily weaken it. Then it keeps coming back and all you want to do is relax and watch some tv.
Let's not forget how many people use them once you've no bar/hon...it's seriously impossible to have a GG once that happens, since you get wasted over and over as you leave buildings. Why bother dodging? you'll die anyway. At least you stand a chance w/a rifle soldier against any other character.
The bottom line is that their damage values need toned down or they need to be removed completely along with quite a few other changes to compensate. And nobody has refuted falconxl's point about renegade meant to having seek-out rockets instead of ramjet rifles.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127856] |
Mon, 20 December 2004 12:38 |
ADM
Messages: 133
Registered: March 2003
Karma: 0
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[quote="flyingfox"]| =[DT |
=gbull=[L]=]
And nobody has refuted falconxl's point about renegade meant to having seek-out rockets instead of ramjet rifles.
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Yes but just bcause something was 'meant' to happen, that doesn't change the fact that Renegade has been this way for 3 years. I don't see why all of a sudden it's a major considering that ramjet users have been doing what they do now since day one.
I remember this issue back in beta as someone said it could be a possible problem. Delphi commented that this issue was fine and that the chemistry of the game made it very possible to counter ramjet. Back then everyone replied with their own counters and everyone was fine with it all.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127861] |
Mon, 20 December 2004 13:47 |
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Falconxl
Messages: 172
Registered: February 2003
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ADM I bitched once I saw the damage done durring the air beta as did others. But there were more n00bjetters saying it was fine than there were us multiskilled players complaining.
Moderator for the pits Renegade Server
Original Ren forum info:
Falconxl
Commander
Member # 4776
Posts: 615 | Registered: Dec 2001 |
Phase 3 Beta Testor
[Updated on: Mon, 20 December 2004 13:48] Report message to a moderator |
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127862] |
Mon, 20 December 2004 13:48 |
Weirdo
Messages: 369
Registered: March 2003
Karma: 0
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Commander |
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It might just be me, I only play on the pits, but I actually don't see many people pointwhoring with snipers. The only time they really get active is on maps like Walls Flying, City Flying, or Field. On the 2 flying maps, the game more oftenly results in a win bye base destruction, so who cares about snipers. And on Field the tanks are the most important in the field. And the snipers are more active in the tunnels. But since they actually also give a nice set of points back, when you kill them they aren't really a problem in the tunnels. Just use infantry that give away less points.
Size doesn't matter.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127881] |
Mon, 20 December 2004 15:21 |
Hulkcore
Messages: 64
Registered: April 2004
Karma: 0
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I say leave them the way they are. Helis would be ultra powerful without them. And the thing is, even if we had seeking rockets, would they kill a heli in one shot like real life? Cause you ppl would b!tch about that too. There are PLENTY of ways to counter snipers. APCs, Tanks, other snipers, shotguns...etc... If you can't defend your bar/hon, you deserve the crippling effect of it's absence, just like any other building. That's the whole freaking point of the game, to destroy the enemy while defending your base. So don't complain about losing the hand and getting owned by havocs, you deserve the torture cause you lost the hand. The light armor vehicles are light armor for a reason, they each serve specific purposes. A hummer shouldn't be as hard to kill as an apc, it's meant for recon, not for transport, etc...
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127889] |
Mon, 20 December 2004 15:43 |
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Javaxcx
Messages: 1943
Registered: February 2003
Location: Canada, eh?
Karma: 0
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General (1 Star) |
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| Aircraftkiller |
The Ramjet is good at EVERYTHING! Same with the stupid 500 credit sniper too.
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So is Mobius.
Frankly, what you and everyone else seem to be whining about with these sniper's is that they can in fact... shoot long distances. We're all agreed that the points given per sniper bullet are way to high. So that should be changed for the sake of balance. However, when it comes to the damage the Ramjet and the basic sniper rifle do against vehicles, all of you use your brains and stop thinking on an all-or-none basis.
What most of you seem to be forgetting is that Renegade is based off of (not a replica, as far as I know) of an RTS (real time strategy game) called Command and Conquer Tiberian Dawn. ADM is absolutely right. Stop whining about why there is a big bad sniper owning you and select a unit or a vehicle that can deal with it. If you don't have a barracks, Hand of Nod, war factory, or airstrip because your team sucks the wang chung, your arguements are all but invalid. Believe it or not, the sniper's damage and capabilities are easily matched by many units. What people seem to forget is that regardless of how powerful the sniper is, he still has to HIT you in order to do damage. In which time, you can quite easily unload as many rounds necessary from one of the semi/automatic weapons necessary to take him out.
But even more importantly, if there are an abunance of snipers on the field, and you still have all your buildings, get a damn tank and ignore them. It is the faulty strategy on the sniper's team that will result in the ownage of their base by YOUR tanks. If you don't have the necessary buildings, you've already fucked up and those snipers have every right to kick your ass.
What I find entertaining is how much you nay-sayers are trying to balance the game to be exactly like the original Command and Conquer. All the while forgetting that just about everything you're striving for would result in a game far more unbalanced then you claim it to already be. Last time I checked, TD starred Orcas which didn't have machine guns. That's fine. But then again, the only infantry that could hit it were rocket soldiers, certainly not any vehicles that I can recall off hand. So what does that mean? When you lose the Hand of Nod, you lose your ability to destory Orcas? Or what about APCs? Couldn't a set of 5 or so GDI or Nod soldiers wipe out an APC in under 30 seconds? Doesn't that kind of firepower render base defences all but obsolete? The list goes on and on.
Stop whining about the damage dealt by the Ramjets because they don't correspond with the original Command and Conquer (because, after all, there were no Ramjets in TD, or Repair guns, or specialized characters outside the commando, or PICs, or Railguns, or Stealth Blackhands, etc) and deal with the problem strategically. The game has lasted for an approximate time of 3 years on these settings, and it has been fine.
Sniper Extraordinaire
Read the FUD Rules before you come in and make an ass of yourself.
All your base are belong to us.
You have no chance to survive make your time.
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127891] |
Mon, 20 December 2004 15:52 |
buxton4
Messages: 13
Registered: October 2004
Karma: 0
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| Javaxcx |
| Aircraftkiller |
The Ramjet is good at EVERYTHING! Same with the stupid 500 credit sniper too.
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So is Mobius.
Frankly, what you and everyone else seem to be whining about with these sniper's is that they can in fact... shoot long distances. We're all agreed that the points given per sniper bullet are way to high. So that should be changed for the sake of balance. However, when it comes to the damage the Ramjet and the basic sniper rifle do against vehicles, all of you use your brains and stop thinking on an all-or-none basis.
What most of you seem to be forgetting is that Renegade is based off of (not a replica, as far as I know) of an RTS (real time strategy game) called Command and Conquer Tiberian Dawn. ADM is absolutely right. Stop whining about why there is a big bad sniper owning you and select a unit or a vehicle that can deal with it. If you don't have a barracks, Hand of Nod, war factory, or airstrip because your team sucks the wang chung, your arguements are all but invalid. Believe it or not, the sniper's damage and capabilities are easily matched by many units. What people seem to forget is that regardless of how powerful the sniper is, he still has to HIT you in order to do damage. In which time, you can quite easily unload as many rounds necessary from one of the semi/automatic weapons necessary to take him out.
But even more importantly, if there are an abunance of snipers on the field, and you still have all your buildings, get a damn tank and ignore them. It is the faulty strategy on the sniper's team that will result in the ownage of their base by YOUR tanks. If you don't have the necessary buildings, you've already fucked up and those snipers have every right to kick your ass.
What I find entertaining is how much you nay-sayers are trying to balance the game to be exactly like the original Command and Conquer. All the while forgetting that just about everything you're striving for would result in a game far more unbalanced then you claim it to already be. Last time I checked, TD starred Orcas which didn't have machine guns. That's fine. But then again, the only infantry that could hit it were rocket soldiers, certainly not any vehicles that I can recall off hand. So what does that mean? When you lose the Hand of Nod, you lose your ability to destory Orcas? Or what about APCs? Couldn't a set of 5 or so GDI or Nod soldiers wipe out an APC in under 30 seconds? Doesn't that kind of firepower render base defences all but obsolete? The list goes on and on.
Stop whining about the damage dealt by the Ramjets because they don't correspond with the original Command and Conquer (because, after all, there were no Ramjets in TD, or Repair guns, or specialized characters outside the commando, or PICs, or Railguns, or Stealth Blackhands, etc) and deal with the problem strategically. The game has lasted for an approximate time of 3 years on these settings, and it has been fine.
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Great sense Java, you shot down both arguements and put forward your own argument, with just one post.
OT: any idea when fudonline will be back up I need to re download arnie's stirngs after installing CP1
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| Havoc\Sakura on Ramjet Rifles - Final Word [message #127902] |
Mon, 20 December 2004 16:30 |
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Aircraftkiller
Messages: 8213
Registered: February 2003
Karma: 0
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General (5 Stars) |
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No, he's not. Mobius is only good at close range and takes more time to destroy a Buggy or Hum-vee than a n00b cannon does.
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Frankly, what you and everyone else seem to be whining about with these sniper's is that they can in fact... shoot long distances. We're all agreed that the points given per sniper bullet are way to high. So that should be changed for the sake of balance. However, when it comes to the damage the Ramjet and the basic sniper rifle do against vehicles, all of you use your brains and stop thinking on an all-or-none basis.
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No one has a problem with them shooting long distance. That's the entire point of a sniper rifle.
The n00b cannon does not need to damage vehicles anywhere near as much as it does now. Maybe 5% of its current vehicle damage is acceptable, but not what it is immediately.
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What most of you seem to be forgetting is that Renegade is based off of (not a replica, as far as I know) of an RTS (real time strategy game) called Command and Conquer Tiberian Dawn.
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I've been following Renegade since 1998. It was pitched then and was pitched in 2002 as being C&C95 in first person.
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Stop whining about why there is a big bad sniper owning you and select a unit or a vehicle that can deal with it.
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Both "snipers" destroy all of these units:
MRLS
Artillery
Hum-vee
Buggy
Orca
Apache
Transport Helicopter
All infantry
What does that leave undamaged, but getting horrible points off?
APC
Mammoth Tank
Medium Tank
Light Tank
Stealth Tank (which literally gives off like 23 points a shot)
Oh yes. Lets get those units so they can shoot my Light Tank for 10 points a shot. By the time I drive across the bridge on City Flying, assuming I haven't been shot up already, they can have 100+ points from just shooting at my tank. By the time I destroy one, I made no point profit. I gave the enemy more points by just getting a vehicle than I did killing the soldier that did the damage to my vehicle.
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What people seem to forget is that regardless of how powerful the sniper is, he still has to HIT you in order to do damage. In which time, you can quite easily unload as many rounds necessary from one of the semi/automatic weapons necessary to take him out.
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OH LIKE IT'S THAT HARD TO HIT SOMEONE WITH A WEAPON THAT HAS FOUR SHOTS PER MAGAZINE AND HAS NO RECOIL, AND FLICKERS SIDE TO SIDE WHILE SCOPED TO MAKE IT EVEN HARDER TO TARGET THE ATTACKER.
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But even more importantly, if there are an abunance of snipers on the field, and you still have all your buildings, get a damn tank and ignore them.
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By the time they finish taking my armor off my tank with the n00b cannons, I'll have probably 200 points from attacking a building. They'll have more. It's useless to get a tank, you lose anyways.
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Last time I checked, TD starred Orcas which didn't have machine guns. That's fine. But then again, the only infantry that could hit it were rocket soldiers, certainly not any vehicles that I can recall off hand.
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The reason why tanks couldn't aim at aircraft was that they moved so fast, which makes it futile for them to attempt firing with unguided tank shells. Obviously this can be done in first person but takes a lot of luck or skill to pull off.
Orcas don't need a machine gun. Apaches don't need missiles.
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Stop whining about the damage dealt by the Ramjets because they don't correspond with the original Command and Conque
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As I said earlier this game was pitched as being C&C95 in first person. The Commando is meant to be Havoc. Havoc's gun is supposed to be useful against infantry only.
The game has not been fine. People don't stop playing games because they're fun. They stop playing them, like this one, because it sucks.
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