Home » Renegade Discussions » Tactics and Strategies » Renegade vs. Real World
| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968809] |
Thu, 20 June 2002 17:52   |
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QUOTE----------
You ignorant canadiens better wake the @\%$# up! If it wasn't for the USA, you would be saluting Hitler, Stalin, or some Jap emperor!!! Stick to what you know....hockey....oh wait, no canadian teams are in the finals. Canada SUCKS!
QUOTE----------
Oh....thanks for Glancing over Britain there....
What did you do for us? ZILCH?
Where were you when we were getting blitzed? NOWHERE!
Oh - A passanger liner has been sunk....CALL TO ARMS!
Sheesh, I mean come on! It means JACK all to you that all of Europe was getting massacred, when ONLY 20 people die on a Liner then its " NOW ITS PERSONAL "
And, you B****ds are suppiying the IRA with weapons. I had a reletive who DIED in a car bomb, and your saying things are wrong....IT TAKES 11/9 TO OPEN YOUR FREAKING EYES TO TERRORISM!!!
THEN, YOU LAUNCH A BIG ATTACK WITH NO IDEA OF THE REPROCUSSIONS.
OSAMA HAS NOT BEEN FOUN - YOU DO NOT KNOW WHEN HE WILL DO NEXT
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968808] |
Thu, 20 June 2002 06:19 |
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Come on now........
Britain is a powerful ally. We do not knowingly supply arms to terrorists in allied countries. Especially Britain. Think before you speak.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968807] |
Thu, 20 June 2002 06:58 |
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![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) Uh the US sure does supply the IRA and PIRA with guns, and money, and support. The representitives of the IRA travel every year to America to raise funds and recieve arms which they bring back to Ireland to use against the British.
However thats not why I'm responding. It's that dumbass anti-Canada remark. Who got the gold *****? Who got the gold?
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968806] |
Thu, 20 June 2002 10:12 |
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In reply to I hate the French:
1. You're right, it's not America's job to be police of the world, which is why countries take offense and hate America for meddling in things that shouldn't concern them. And as for when interests are involved, America's foreign policy means that they have an interest in almost anything that's happening.
2. America is not the greatest nation, only the most powerful. And it's not just due to democracy, otherwise other democracies in the world would also be as powerful. It's also due to the number of people and the strict adherance to the principles of capitalism, or the so called "Greater Good".
3. Freedom can also mean "A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference", which America has shown. So yes, doing whatever you want to get ahead would = Prosperity.
4. The countries that hate America hate it because decisions to protect it's own interests negatively affect their own. When's the last time you saw a trade embargo put on America because of an economic decision? American Farmers are now heavily subsidised by the government, allowing them to provide their goods at discounted prices, causing an unfair advantage over farmers from every other country. If this was done by another country, you can bet that America would be at the WTO before you could think and sanctions would come into effect.
5. Countries don't want americans to die for them, Vietnam anyone? As for terrorist bombings, here's a question for you: Who is the only country to have used not 1 but 2 weapons of mass destruction against civilians? (hint: Hiroshima, Nagasaki)
6. Israel is hated because of the displacement of communities and the lack of religious tolerance. You're right, palestine wasn't a country, Israel was taken from all surrounding countries, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt, the Palestinians became those people dispossessed of their land, which continues every time a new "Settlement" is created. As for terrorism, I don't agree with it at all, but violence begets violence. If people throw stones at you, you don't respond by using a helicopter gunship to blow up a building.
7. Yes it's about time something was done, but again it shows up the hipocrisy of Americans. America has been arressting and detaining suspected terrorists without trial, including those of nationalities other than Afghanistan or Middle-East, but it's only when an American citizen is detained that there's an outcry about this.
On a final note, I'm not saying America is evil or that terrorism is a legitimate tactic, just that no regime is innocent in what has happened.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968805] |
Fri, 21 June 2002 00:11 |
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I unfortunately have to concede your points as being valid. We do have our fingers in everything, but then again, just about every nation quakes when our stock market crashes. Thiers follows accordingly. Economics is the evil here. It is what has changed America from the land of opportunity to the land of exploiters. I do not beleive that the US gov't supports the IRA though. There are groups here who do, but our gov't does not.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968804] |
Fri, 21 June 2002 04:49 |
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No your government does not support the IRA. They just let 'em waltz into America, do thier song and dance, take thier money, and leave.
I dare say the problem with America is not with the government, but with the average Joe who doesn't know, nor care about anything beyond his limited perspective. ****able liberal Americans.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968803] |
Fri, 21 June 2002 17:59 |
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In counter -response (BTW - it's nice to have an intelligent civilized debate. Thank you! 
1. You're right, it's not America's job to be police of the world, which is why countries take offense and hate America for meddling in things that shouldn't concern them. And as for when interests are involved, America's foreign policy means that they have an interest in almost anything that's happening.
*** Response - You are correct here. Unfortunately when liberal administrations are in power, we do meddle too much. Clinton stuck his...nose in where it didn't belong far too often. Conservatives however believe in very limited intervention in other nation's affairs. hopefully, Dubya will stay true to conservatism and not meddle. Of course, hunting down terrorists and those who sponser/protect/support them does not count as meddling ***
2. America is not the greatest nation, only the most powerful. And it's not just due to democracy, otherwise other democracies in the world would also be as powerful. It's also due to the number of people and the strict adherance to the principles of capitalism, or the so called "Greater Good".
*** RESPONSE - I disagree. It is also the most free, the most prosperous, the most stable, the most technologgically and medically advanced, the most tolerant of differing ideas. No other nation has everything we have. Now I am not saying we are perfect - far from it! But we have done in a little over 200 years what some nations have not accomplished in many more centuries. ***
3. Freedom can also mean "A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference", which America has shown. So yes, doing whatever you want to get ahead would = Prosperity.
*** RESPONSE - be careful. Doing what you want does not = doing what you have the power to do. Could we conquer any country through military might? Yes, but we don't. Could we dominate any country through economic might? Yes, but we don't. We recognize that other nations are soverign too. We can use our power to persuade and even coerce. The end game is the spread of democracy, freedom, and knowledge. ***
4. The countries that hate America hate it because decisions to protect it's own interests negatively affect their own. When's the last time you saw a trade embargo put on America because of an economic decision? American Farmers are now heavily subsidised by the government, allowing them to provide their goods at discounted prices, causing an unfair advantage over farmers from every other country. If this was done by another country, you can bet that America would be at the WTO before you could think and sanctions would come into effect.
*** RESPONSE - Arab countries are not negatively affected by our policies. When was the last time we put an oil embargo on them? Our embargo against Cuba is really against Castro, not the Cuban people. Once he steps down/dies and the Communists are out of power, the embargo ends. I agree with you about the farm subsidies, though. No business should be subsidized at all. If they cannot compete in the marketplace, they should not be in it. ***
5. Countries don't want americans to die for them, Vietnam anyone? As for terrorist bombings, here's a question for you: Who is the only country to have used not 1 but 2 weapons of mass destruction against civilians? (hint: Hiroshima, Nagasaki)
*** RESPONSE - Viet Nam was a mistake. In fact, we were trying to clean up the mess caused by the French (another reason to hate them). We won every single engagement in the war, but lost because the liberal bureaucrats tried to run the war from DC instead of letting the generals win the war the right way. Could have been over in 3 years... The A bombs were a horrible necessity. Japan had made it very clear that they would not surrender at any cost. All Japanese were of a mindset that to surrender is the ultimate disgrace. The loss of lives it would have taken to conquer each Pacific island and finally take Japan conventionally would have far, far outstripped the casualties suffered by the bombs. Dropping those bombs and forcing an unconditional surrender actually saved many millions of lives, both American and Japanese. BTW both cities were also legitimate military targets. Unfortunately, as in every war in history, civilians get killed. The difference is that civilians were not the target in these cases.
6. Israel is hated because of the displacement of communities and the lack of religious tolerance. You're right, palestine wasn't a country, Israel was taken from all surrounding countries, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Egypt, the Palestinians became those people dispossessed of their land, which continues every time a new "Settlement" is created. As for terrorism, I don't agree with it at all, but violence begets violence. If people throw stones at you, you don't respond by using a helicopter gunship to blow up a building.
*** RESPONSE - Israel was not formed from those countries. It was formed from Trans-Jordan, which was part of the British Commonwealth. Britain GAVE the land to Israel and also tried to give some of it to Palestine. The Palestinians refused. BTW, why not ask Jordan why they kicked out 300,000 Palestinians and Syria why they kicked out 100,0000? Guess they couldn't behave there either....***
7. Yes it's about time something was done, but again it shows up the hipocrisy of Americans. America has been arressting and detaining suspected terrorists without trial, including those of nationalities other than Afghanistan or Middle-East, but it's only when an American citizen is detained that there's an outcry about this.
*** RESPONSE - suspected terrorists are not American citizens, so they do not have contitutional rights, including a 'speedy trial'. Since they do not belong to a country that has declared war, they are also not covered under the Geneva Convention as POWs. We COULD just execute them and be done with it, but we don't. We feed them, clothe them, and go out of our way to respect their religious beliefs at the taxpayer's expense. As for their native countries, only Britain asked for their nationals back. Nobody else wants the rest... ***
On a final note, I'm not saying America is evil or that terrorism is a legitimate tactic, just that no regime is innocent in what has happened.
*** RESPONSE - no one is completely innocent in the history of every nation. Our own nation had slavery and the displacement of the Indians. BUT...as nearly all nations have, we have grown and changed and progressed. No matter the sins of the government, you cannot justify the deliberate targeting of civilians that occurred on 9/11/2002 ***
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968802] |
Fri, 21 June 2002 06:09 |
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I just wanted to say something to our bretheren outside the US. Please do not read into this discussion that Americans think they are superior to other people in the world. We are not. We just happened to be born here by the grace of God. We could have been born in another country and still be the same people. All people are born equal. All live under different cir***stances and opportunities.
We do believe that our country is the greatest because of the freedoms we have. Democracy, capitalism, religious freedom, a free press, and the freedom to dissent...Some countries have many of these. No other has all of them. That's why we believe our country is the greatest and we are entitled to that belief.
I assume most of you believe your country is the greatest for various reasons and you are also entitled to that belief. We are all in this together, either as proponents of freedom and liberty, or as proponents of socialism, totalitarianism, terrorism, or oppression. We believe that "Might serves Right". Some believe that "Might makes Right". You decide...
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968801] |
Fri, 21 June 2002 08:09 |
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Quote
We do believe that our country is the greatest because of the freedoms we have. Democracy, capitalism, religious freedom, a free press, and the freedom to dissent...Some countries have many of these. No other has all of them. That's why we believe our country is the greatest and we are entitled to that belief.
End quote
Speficically responding to "some countries have many of these. No other has all of them." Open your eyes please. Many countries have all of these freedoms (namly 1st world countries). Many other countries may not have them all but to say that only America has them all is blatent ignorance. Lets do a check list shall we. I live in Ireland (Rep. of not the north)
Democracy we have,
Capitalism we have,
Religious freedom we have,
A free press we have,
Freedom to dissent we have.
So remember while America has this reason to believe its the greatest many other countries have it too.
Also im glad ill be able to debate here with being flamed by the ignorant. Its nice to have a civilized debate as opposed to the typical "OH NO WERE THE BEST WAHAHAHAHAH". Sickening.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968800] |
Sat, 22 June 2002 23:06 |
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Just a couple of points:
2. America is not the greatest nation, only the most powerful. And it's not just due to democracy, otherwise other democracies in the world would also be as powerful. It's also due to the number of people and the strict adherance to the principles of capitalism, or the so called "Greater Good".
*** RESPONSE - I disagree. It is also the most free, the most prosperous, the most stable, the most technologgically and medically advanced, the most tolerant of differing ideas. No other nation has everything we have. Now I am not saying we are perfect - far from it! But we have done in a little over 200 years what some nations have not accomplished in many more centuries. ***
+++ I don't think there's much point arguing about the greatest country, as you said later almost everyone probably thinks theirs is the greatest. Although, technological and medical advancements could be debated, because as soon as one becomes available, it's pretty much available to everyone, and they come from all nations. And I would definately not agree with tolerance, the KKK is a prime example.+++
3. Freedom can also mean "A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference", which America has shown. So yes, doing whatever you want to get ahead would = Prosperity.
*** RESPONSE - be careful. Doing what you want does not = doing what you have the power to do. Could we conquer any country through military might? Yes, but we don't. Could we dominate any country through economic might? Yes, but we don't. We recognize that other nations are soverign too. We can use our power to persuade and even coerce. The end game is the spread of democracy, freedom, and knowledge. ***
+++Doesn't using power for persuasion or coercion contradict the basic tenets of democracy and freedom? And the spread of democracy is a noble goal, but what happens if it stifles an even better form of government? The spread of Monarchies and despotism would have attempted to eradicate democracy in its infant stages as well, although I agree with replacing forms of government that are widely recognised as flawed from past experience with Democracy.+++
4. The countries that hate America hate it because decisions to protect it's own interests negatively affect their own. When's the last time you saw a trade embargo put on America because of an economic decision? American Farmers are now heavily subsidised by the government, allowing them to provide their goods at discounted prices, causing an unfair advantage over farmers from every other country. If this was done by another country, you can bet that America would be at the WTO before you could think and sanctions would come into effect.
*** RESPONSE - Arab countries are not negatively affected by our policies. When was the last time we put an oil embargo on them? Our embargo against Cuba is really against Castro, not the Cuban people. Once he steps down/dies and the Communists are out of power, the embargo ends. I agree with you about the farm subsidies, though. No business should be subsidized at all. If they cannot compete in the marketplace, they should not be in it. ***
+++ True, Arab countries are not any more negatively impacted than other countries, but they are impacted by many small economic decisions made like higher import duties. And that's not to say that other countries (including arab countries) do not do the same thing, they just don't have the economic muscle to push as far as the USA.+++
5. Countries don't want americans to die for them, Vietnam anyone? As for terrorist bombings, here's a question for you: Who is the only country to have used not 1 but 2 weapons of mass destruction against civilians? (hint: Hiroshima, Nagasaki)
*** RESPONSE - Viet Nam was a mistake. In fact, we were trying to clean up the mess caused by the French (another reason to hate them). We won every single engagement in the war, but lost because the liberal bureaucrats tried to run the war from DC instead of letting the generals win the war the right way. Could have been over in 3 years... The A bombs were a horrible necessity. Japan had made it very clear that they would not surrender at any cost. All Japanese were of a mindset that to surrender is the ultimate disgrace. The loss of lives it would have taken to conquer each Pacific island and finally take Japan conventionally would have far, far outstripped the casualties suffered by the bombs. Dropping those bombs and forcing an unconditional surrender actually saved many millions of lives, both American and Japanese. BTW both cities were also legitimate military targets. Unfortunately, as in every war in history, civilians get killed. The difference is that civilians were not the target in these cases.***
+++ I completely disagree with you. The bombing of the Japanese was unnecessary and barbaric. The destructive potential of the bombs could have been demonstrated without the need for any casualties and had the same results, but the Americans wanted a field test. Sure, there were justifications as military targets, but the tests performed on their own soldiers showed the Atomic bombs to be completely indiscriminate in the damage dealt.+++
7. Yes it's about time something was done, but again it shows up the hipocrisy of Americans. America has been arressting and detaining suspected terrorists without trial, including those of nationalities other than Afghanistan or Middle-East, but it's only when an American citizen is detained that there's an outcry about this.
*** RESPONSE - suspected terrorists are not American citizens, so they do not have contitutional rights, including a 'speedy trial'. Since they do not belong to a country that has declared war, they are also not covered under the Geneva Convention as POWs. We COULD just execute them and be done with it, but we don't. We feed them, clothe them, and go out of our way to respect their religious beliefs at the taxpayer's expense. As for their native countries, only Britain asked for their nationals back. Nobody else wants the rest... ***
+++ Either that or they don't want to be seen as offside. I don't disagree with the treatment, I was just raising that the only time an outcry was made was when one of the prisoners was American.+++
On a final note, I'm not saying America is evil or that terrorism is a legitimate tactic, just that no regime is innocent in what has happened.
*** RESPONSE - no one is completely innocent in the history of every nation. Our own nation had slavery and the displacement of the Indians. BUT...as nearly all nations have, we have grown and changed and progressed. No matter the sins of the government, you cannot justify the deliberate targeting of civilians that occurred on 9/11/2002 ***
+++ I agree. And remember, just because a section of a community or country performs the actions, you cannot condemn the entirety. The IRA doesn't represent the Irish, suicide bombers don't represent Palestinians, and people like Timothy McVeigh don't represent Americans.+++
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968799] |
Mon, 24 June 2002 01:03 |
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Good conversation gentlemen. All valid points, and all are debatable, but we resisted the flame impulse. The begining of understanding starts with topics like this.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968798] |
Mon, 24 June 2002 01:44 |
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----------------------------
Originally posted by Chronigan:
I just have to open my mouth....
To qoute spiderman "With great power comes great responsablity"
----------------------------
??? That quote isn't originally from spiderman, F00! Typical american presumption. what's wrong with u ppl, u don't know a thing about squat, and you act all big. geeze
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968795] |
Mon, 24 June 2002 02:53 |
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I am so pleased to have participated in this discussion. For the most part, all points have been made intelligently. It IS possible to have differing viewpoints, yet refrain from descending into flaming and namecalling.
One response to the gentleman from Ireland. I do not believe that Ireland has the religious freedom the US does, but that is probably because I am defining it differently than you. In the USA, we have no official or state-sponsored/supported religion. I believe that Ireland's official church is Roman Catholic (if I am wrong please correct me...gently) just as Germany's is Lutheran, England's is Anglican, and Japan's is Shinto. To me, religious freedom also means that the government does not favor one over another.
BTW, this is not Catholic-bashing or religious bashing of any sort. I am Roman Catholic myself!
A list of my favorite countries other than the USA that I love because of the general mindset of the people and/or the freedoms they enjoy. I will NEVER bash or denigrate any of these: Canada, Britain, Ireland, Scotland (i know, i know - it's part of Britain, but I love it!!), Australia, Austria, Costa Rica, Germany, Hong Kong (i know it's part of China now, but they will never lose their uniqueness), Taiwan, Japan, S. Korea, Monaco, Italy, Poland, Bahamas, Tazmania. Sorry if I left out some that I can't think of. Special Honorable Mention goes to Russia and Ukraine - they are trying so hard to make the transition from communism to capitalism. Russia especially gets kudos for implementing a flat-tax income tax structure before even we Yanks have gotten it figured out!!
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968794] |
Mon, 24 June 2002 03:00 |
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As far as i know that quote came from the very old spider man comics, its what his uncle told him. If i'm wrong feel free to tell me where the quote came from. America gets involved with other countrys becuase they see its a mistake not too, remember WW2? we sat back and watched germany attack europe thiking"this doesnt concern us, just another european war" that is until germany got much more powerful and japan attack pearl harbor, then after america cooled down about pearl harbor they realized that they better do something or germany will come after them next, and i must admit without america germany would have rolled over europe in no time.{kudos to the russians for helping us win, stupid hitler fighting on to many fronts.}
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968792] |
Mon, 24 June 2002 17:58 |
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Excellent!
You Irish also have the 2nd best beer (after Germany) and the Most Beautiful Red-Headed Women in the world!
Oh yeah...the rolling green countryside is just amazing as well.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968791] |
Mon, 24 June 2002 06:03 |
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Twas reading back through some of these posts and found a lot of bad examples being given. We have to remember that in any group of people, there will always be some fringe element that does not represent the group's ideals/ideas as a whole.
ex. America does not supply the IRA and the KKK does not make policy, the neo-Nazis do not represent the mainstream views of Germany, the nutso terrorists do not represent the peaceful Muslims throughout the world, the Brits do not all have lousy teeth, and (in a poke at myself) the French are not ALL Socialist, backstabbing, b4stards (the folks around Normandy are actually quite friendly).
Just be careful when you make accusations against a country and it's policies that you are not taking a small group and letting it's actions speak for the whole.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968790] |
Mon, 24 June 2002 07:25 |
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Right on IHateTheFrench! 9-11 was just the most recent in a string of attacks.
-Kobar towers, 20+ US Airmen died, Saudi Arabia
-First WTC bombing
-US Embassies in Africa
-USS Cole
-More US Embassies
We have been attacked before but it was either against our military or overseas so the adverage person didn't see it as a threat that needed dealing with. Sure we threw a few missiles but nothing more. Every country has a right to look out after it's best interests, it's people, it's ideals. The US is looking out for herself. If that bothers some of you then please go to Saudi or Egypt and become a citizen then speak out against the goverment, there will be one less Renagade player when you do.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968789] |
Mon, 24 June 2002 07:36 |
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america is also guilty of genocide
read up on the armenian genocide(if you can even find anything, the us has gone inot cover up mode with this event).
also america wanted to get into WW2 but was lloking for an excuse to because of the current policy of isolationism(im taking my social 20 exam tomorrow so i should know what im talking about.)
and finally just a humorous little sidenote;
Canada burnt down the whitehouse in the war of 1812 which is why many gov. buildings in D.C. are now made of stone
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968788] |
Mon, 24 June 2002 08:29 |
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Quote
Excellent!
You Irish also have the 2nd best beer (after Germany) and the Most Beautiful Red-Headed Women in the world!
Oh yeah...the rolling green countryside is just amazing as well.
Quote
Ireland, probably the best country in the world.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968787] |
Tue, 25 June 2002 02:17 |
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Quote from CrazyIke:
america is also guilty of genocide
read up on the armenian genocide(if you can even find anything, the us has gone inot cover up mode with this event).
also america wanted to get into WW2 but was lloking for an excuse to because of the current policy of isolationism(im taking my social 20 exam tomorrow so i should know what im talking about.)
and finally just a humorous little sidenote;
Canada burnt down the whitehouse in the war of 1812 which is why many gov. buildings in D.C. are now made of stone
Ummmm...might wanna change colleges. Looks like you are going to one with those liberal revisionist profs that change the history they teach to fit what they believe. Is is Berkeley?
1. Coverup mode on Armenian genocide? Sorry dudeski - there is a such thing as the secret too big to keep. Can't cover up the entire Internet, ya know.
2. Correct on entry into WWII - Americans supported the war effort in Britain, but were not ready to enter ourselves. Instead, the government supplied troops, materials, and supplies...unofficially.
3. Canada did not burn the White House. The British did. Period. And why exactly is the burning of the White House humerous? I would not laugh if the Kremlin were destroyed..or the Bundestag...or any other national seat of power.
Sounds like you are not only a liberal turd, but a conspiracy geek and a sicko...get a life and stay away from animals carnally.
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968786] |
Tue, 25 June 2002 02:45 |
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Every nation on this planet should be thankful
for the US..if it wasnt for the US most of you
****-ass nations would not be here now!!!
Im so sick of these whinning ppl dissing the US
you hate us in non-war ...you love us when we liberate your fricking countries...you love our money that we give you every year (totaling in the billions) (US taxpayers money!..) if I had my way.. I would cut off all boarders...put a wall
around the US..kick out all of the anti-US haters
and not let anyone else into our country..cut off all aid to other countries..and if then any country wants to mess with us..then I say *****-slap them back into the stone-age.. oh..wait a tick..most of you still live in the stone age...
If you do not like the USA fine...but you had better wake up and realize that w/o the US...you
other countries would fail to be!
the world would be in utter chaos (worse than it is now)
IMO
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| Renegade vs. Real World [message #-968785] |
Tue, 25 June 2002 02:59 |
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Refering to IHTF'S comment about support for the British before the war: It was called the ships for bases deal. We provided ships from our fleet for patrol duty off thier coast, as well as parts, food, etc. In exchange we received "bases" overseas to operate from. Really just a prestaging of our troops for the imminent war that a reluctant US populous had trouble facing.
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